Occupy talk: Council wants campers moved, not ousted
-
Speakers expressed solidarity with Occupy Charlottesville by wearing red.hawes spencer -
Occupy Charlottesville has been going on in Lee Park since October.hawes spencer
With its seats filled and with huddled masses of humanity lining the aisles and anterooms, City Council Chambers had never in recent memory appeared so crowded. But in the end, the literally dozens of pro-Occupy Charlottesville speakers didn't get exactly what they wanted, which was unlimited permission to remain ensconced in Lee Park after their current permit expires on Thanksgiving Day.
Occupy campers and their supporters– one as young as twelve years old– thronged Charlottesville's governing body for four hours during Council's November 21 meeting. When it was over, the mayor said he had no plans to oust the protestors– who have peacefully inveighed against American economic disparity. But Mayor Dave Norris also said he wanted them to relocate, as some North Downtowners have grown tired of the round-the-clock spectacle of porta-potties and about 50 tents in the one-acre park.
However, at least one City Councilor, Kristin Szakos, expressed firm solidarity, even offering an impassioned First Amendment defense of the effort which began in October with a few placards and which now includes scores of people and a nightly campfire.
"For me," said Szakos, "the occupation is speech. Free speech doesn't end af 11 o'clock, and it doesn't end after Thanksgiving."
That's the kind of support that kept the faithful– most wearing some bit of red fabric as a sign of solidarity– under Council's fluorescent lights when they might otherwise be tending their fire under the watchful eye of General Robert E. Lee astride his trusty Traveller, the statue at the park's center.
"This park, this space, has been political space ever since that equestrian statue was put in," said UVA architectural professor Daniel Bluestone. "If you remove the right, the intensity of this community, to exercise their political speech, then I have a suggestion: Let's remove Lee."
Bluestone's speech was one of three that brought a standing ovation, the same number that mentioned Jesus. Only three speakers asked for the removal of the encampment.
One was Elizabeth Breeden, a board member of interfaith shelter group PACEM, who posited a theory that the alcoholics and mentally troubled homeless men who appear to have glommed on to the movement are missing care they need in professionally managed shelters.
"We're being asked to equate free speech with a campground in Lee Park," said Breeden.
Another critic was Mark Kavit, who said he has been hearing from fellow residents including an unnamed board member of the North Downtown Residents Association who laments an alleged influx of "undesirable people who urinate on lawns, sleep in bushes, and are sometimes aggressive." Kavit's unnamed correspondent noted that while some are jobless workers in a bad economy, "Some are simply drunken bums."
That kind of talk moved another North Downtowner to pipe up that he saw no problem with the occupation.
It was also a night for theatrics. One woman who graduated from UVA two years ago with a women's studies degree pulled her speech out of a big red cardboard heart.
"We have a right to be there with or without your permit," the woman said. "It's about valuing personal relationships over material gain. It's all about love."
The morning after the marathon hearing (which pushed the end of the Council meeting well past midnight), Mayor Norris told a reporter that there will be no forced eviction but that the City plans to take advantage of an offer by human rights lawyer John Whitehead to work out an ongoing solution to find a new venue.
"We're not going to go in and remove them," said Norris. "But we're very mindful of the fact that the neighborhood has been very patient and very tolerant."
69 comments
Recently passed by Occupy Charlottesville in an official General Assembly:
"Our liberation rests on our ability to... stand in solidarity to fight capitalism..."
I can't imagine why they get all upset and ill-tempered when people mention or even hint that they are anti-capitalist.
I wonder if they released that quote on twitter using their ipod?
They have a right to free speech, they have a right to assembly, they have a right to redress the government for grievances.
They do not have a right to decide the openng and closing hours of a public park. That park is no different than the library next to it.
If they don't leave then stop letting more in then arrest them as they leave to get food booze or use the bathroom.
Also open air fires are against the law. Whats up with that?
Drunken bums you say Mr. Kavit? Why I'll have you know I resemble that remark.
George McIntire who donated me to the City was part of the 1%. Where are the parks donated by the 99%. Your right Bailey park is one. What about the large open area at the former Lane High down the road, give me a break.
You have to love the way the Occupiers in the audience responded to Ms. Collette Hall when she took to the mic to voice her opposing viewpoint on Occupy. She was respectful and courteous, almost timid even, and yet there the Occupiers were, waving her away with their hands and HISSING at her.
"Free speech" only applies to them, apparently. Not to anybody else with an opposing viewpoint, no matter how respectful and courteous they may be. You gotta love that double standard. News flash Occupy Babies: Grow up.
It was obnoxious to see all the so-called "bleeding heart liberals" as they're usually called getting up to the mic and whining and crying with impassioned, badly recited speeches that made them sound like a seven year old standing on the school stage giving a bad performance at the recital. With the exception of a few, namely any of the pro-Occupiers who were over 40, the rest sounded like immature little babies with the way they spoke. (I especially loved the ones who were all caught up in their badly recited passionate speeches, whining and sounding like they were about to cry....then losing their spots, fumbling and giggling. Please.) And they wonder why people scoff at them and don't take them serious. But the clincher was the way they waved off Ms. Hall and HISSED at her. Pathetic.
Great location: open grassy space, parking, near the halls of power - Lane High School, now the County Office Building. Time for the city and county to work together. This site is in the heart of the community and highly visible.
I continue to ask- WHAT DO THEY WANT? They are not the "99 %" as they claim. They need to do what the Tea Party did to at least start the change happening- change things with their votes.......the Tea Party has changed the landscape of the House and Senate- done by V-O-T-I-N-G out those who they felt did not represent them...........
Perhaps the Tea Party actually represents 80 % of the claimed "99 %".
Perhaps the "notesters" should actually figure it out and take a vote to see if they do indeed represnt what they feel they represent...
Real simple... Definition of speech:
SPEECH
1a : the communication or expression of thoughts in spoken words b : exchange of spoken words : conversation
2a : something that is spoken : utterance b : a usually public discourse : address
3a : language, dialect b : an individual manner or style of speaking
4: the power of expressing or communicating thoughts by speaking
Free speech is NOT sleeping wherever the hell you want. Once you're in a tent sleeping your tresspassing, not speaking. If you can stay awake and speak, stay all you want. Otherwise get the hell out...
Quoting HarryD, "WHAT DO THEY WANT?"
This is not necessarily about what they want right now today, as they already have it, but about a point in time when critical mass sets in. You see this is about LOVE as an expansion of self to include the other. And as each individual gets it then the puzzle pieces come into place and the complete picture eventually dispels the need for hate and anger and war and oppression in the world. You can put the people in Charlottesville out of the park but you cannot evict an idea who's time has come. This will continue to grow and will not be going away. And I don't mean Charlottesville, I mean the world.
We all know the system is broken. Let's forge a new future together in peace, love and harmony. I think we as a people are up to the task. Start today, tonight, right now. Be kind to someone. Post a positive comment rather than negative. Grow up. Be good citizens and put a dose of Love in your heart. Is this TOO much to ask? Peace!
nice going,Peoples Republic of Charlottesville.Bluestone-belly,go ahead and remove "Lee",hoss.Stick to your Beaux Arts Ball inanities.
This is what Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Adams and all fought for.
Read it and weep, if you do not like it!
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Assemble, get it?
Who wrote this?
“Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.”
there was no hissing when Mrs. Hall spoke as I recall, will look over the footage, but pretty sure
I don't often think our city councilors are very bright, so maybe in's an unintended consequence but allowing protestors to occupy the park without a showdown has almost completely rendered them impotent. I drive past them and although I agree that the system has to change, I ignore the folks in the park. I think they're fools in fact and alienate the people who need to be involved in making change happen. I'd actually do something in support if they were barred from protesting. They haven't been barred, so they've effectively been silenced by being allowed to speak. Masterful application of judo on the part of city council..
Michael Sutton- and Congress HASN'T made any law...............- GET IT?
Anyone has the right to assemble, but not just anywhere, or anyway thay they want- GET IT?
No one has stopped anyone from assembling- find a place that will accept "you" and do all the assembling "you" want.
Not sure were you live, but perhaps you can invite the "notesters" to assemble on YOUR property.
Perhaps the White House uniformed services will just open those gates and let "you" in there!
Give me and everyone a break here- let the "notesters" peaceably assemble, walk the streets, "notest", but on the terms established to allow the Government maintain the rights of the majority as well.
If a park, or any other place- LIKE A PARKING SPACE- has rules and hours of operation and those hours are respected by 99.999 % of the folks out here, then why in the world should everything be changed for the .0001%, if it is that many? Just because "they" feel "they" feel that "they" have a constitutional right to do so?
I don't think so...........
Restore the Republic- and you can't be serious, can you?
That is not an answer to the question- "What do they want?" You have to be able to do better than "Peace, Love and harmony".
Now take some time and come up with answer that is a little more realistic
Take your "Notest" to washington- to the Rose Garden- the tea Party did and changed the face of Congress- is it for the better right now, who knows, but they did chage it at teh ballot box.
Give it a try. Try pulling together the OWS party and see how many sign on........
how about them moving to a new city park...maybe the one on Cherry next to The Salvation Army store? That's still walkable distance to downtown and wouldn't it be nice for them to wreck the lawn of another park and have taxpayers pay for their leftover mess?
if the are now called campers (perhaps crampers, for cramping everyone elses lifestyle), maybe they shoudld move to a KOA campground, pay the fees and have all they need- the "notest" would be covered for sure!
I seem to remember that one of the city council members had a close relative who was involved in organizing the Occupy Movement. Perhaps this has something to do with City Council's need to bend over backwards to see this group succeed?
Let THEM find their place to assemble. Don't allow them to camp out. Don't allow them to use city electricity. Treat them as you would any other group exercising their right to free speech.
And, I believe that council member is quoted in this article.
Somehow I think maybe the city is just waiting for winter to hit and the occupiers will leave when the real cold gets here. This way the city won't look bad to the bleeding hearts in town.
What gets me is fine protest and have a Occupy movement, but the city shouldn't be giving them power or toilets... That's just ridiculous.
@ Brandon Collins
I heard hissing after Ms. Hall got going and it became clear that she was against the Occupiers. And I *definitely* saw multiple people all doing the same "wave away" gesture with their hands, grinning.
Bunch of pathetic babies. "Free speech only applies to us! Everybody else needs to go away!"
Somebody should be handing out pacifiers and Huggies to these people. Maybe at the next Council meeting?
The idea that first amendment rights somehow extend to the occupiers at their current location is fragile, at best. By extension of this tortured logic, they might just as well claim the same right if they decide to occupy Interstate 64, or all the classrooms of a school while in session. What protection would the amendment offer to peaceful assemblies in those places? None. Why? Because the exercise of the assembly freedom would interfere with the freedom of others and perhaps pose a danger. Yes, the occupiers presume to have a message, and yes, their freedom to express it (whatever it is) is protected under the First Amendment. But that does not extend to every public place at any time and in any manner they choose.
The council's decision to allow the occupancy "for now" is probably a reasonable position. On the one hand, it recognizes that indeed, there is some exercise of assembly and free speech involved here. And it also recognizes that there are boundaries at some point. How much must neighbors suffer the consequences of the encampment? At what point does a risk to public health and safety become too great? Their attempt to accommodate the situation is commendable.
Which brings us to the point behind the whole movement, which until now has not been articulated so far as I can tell. But "Restore the Republic" has at last spoken: ". . . this is about LOVE as an expansion of self to include the other. And as each individual gets it then the puzzle pieces come into place and the complete picture eventually dispels the need for hate and anger and war and oppression in the world. You can put the people in Charlottesville out of the park but you cannot evict an idea who's time has come."
If love is what it's all about, then perhaps some positive expression of it would be more to the point then sitting around in tents, day after day. Love is the very last thing I would want to evict from someone's mind, but that leaves ejection from the park as an open item, whose time may also be coming. But if you love me, then please, break camp and go home. I promise to be good.
If the Occupy people need so much help in getting relocated, they don't have much incentive, do they? It seems to me they have been coached 100% of the way by organizers. Camping out in Lee Park was their attempt to gain more members. City Council is behind them. How can they be seen as otherwise with close ties to someone who organizes these things? The Occupy's attempt has fallen rather flat, due to lack of any real desire other than to camp out and try to attract someone with some fire to become their leader.
Sending the police in would be awful. Saying no local laws apply to us because we are protesting therefore we get an indefinite pass to stay here is wrong. Moving down to the open area at Lane High/Albemarle office building ( does the County own all that open area now?) giving a deposit and limited time permits.
"Where are the parks donated by the 99%."
Most of our national parks are donated by the 99%, because contrary to popular misconception, they happen to pay taxes.
Several things were reiterated by pro-Occupiers throughout the public hearing this past Monday, including (paraphrase) I found my tribe, we all love each other soooo much, these are my brothers and sisters, I've never been a part of anything like this before, and my favorite: "even though this is largely symbolic..."
Several people openly admitted that what they're doing is largely symbolic. And they admit that the biggest draw for them is that this, whatever it is, provides friends and social interactions, and, it gives their life meaning and purpose that they didn't have before.
So, in their own words, it's a purely symbolic, fun social gathering that gives them something new and different to do.
That's what it is, primarily. It's all there in the comments if you were to go back and rewatch the footage from the public hearing. One after the other begging the Council like whiny children to not take away their fun social gathering that gives their life some sort of meaning that was lacking before.
Somebody needs to tell them that there are other ways to make friends and give one's life purpose.
As long as they're openly admitting that what they're doing is "largely symbolic" then why would anybody take this seriously?
The occupy slobs are stupid in not getting it. In being brain-washed foolish sheep, the filthy drags are too smoked up dumb to understand City Council plans to prevent them from sleeping, copulating in Lee Park. The plan is to coddle the protesters for a while. Oh yes, the mayor smiles all the way. City Council and city management has dug themselves into a hole and they deserve everything that is about to happen. Planning behind closed doors will not prevent uproar when the tents come down.
The politics of Charlottesville is failing law abiding citizens and also downtown businesses.
HarryD, you do not get it and I am sorry that you do not. You will one day. This is almost like trying to explain - and I do not mean this to be rude but it may be to you - to someone that the Earth is not flat, it is round. The world is round and your thinking is flat. In other words, your mind needs to expand to meet the message, then you can understand and will not need to ask questions because you will know. And until you know you will never be happy with the answer because it cannot fit like a round peg into a square mind. Now I am not really saying your mind is square, but you are the one asking the question, because you do not understand, and the one asking cannot dictate the answer. How silly is it to reject an answer you do not understand? In essence I hear you jumping up and down yelling the Earth is flat, I know it is round and nothing I say can change your mind. This may all be upsetting to you, but I do not mean this in a rude way, my perspective just sees further down the road than your current perspective.
Restore the public, I think your head is buried deep in the sandbox. HarryD. does get it. HarryD's kind works for an honest living. Do you think your promotion of love, or rather "bodily fellowship" in Lee Park will solve economic as well as other problems of the world? Every lazy protester in the park and on the downtown mall should get out of the tent and off their drunken butts. Leave Market Street and get a job!
Restore the Republic, that sounds like something a cult member has been programmed to repeat. I'm not saying you are one, but cults always say you don't understand. Problem is we do understand. Has there been anyone from Occupy Charlottesville that has come to any of these newpaper boards and tried to explain or engage in any discussion without just arrogantly waving those with an opposing opinion away with a condescending attitude just as they did at the council meeting and as you just did?
A cult, yes. Wow, you are right on. The koolaid is working too. Darned if I will stoop in listening to the occupy blood suckers. Who are they to model for effective change? Occupy hippies depend on everyone else for their own needs. Can't stand on feet, depend on the city to find them a place to protest and deficate, depend on donations-food, water, firewood,etc.,They are whining failures to the core.
In 1909, Charlottesville, taxed on real estate (40 cents per $100 value). In addition, the City taxed on how much cash/bonds/stock you had in the bank. In addition to that taxed you on how much income over one thousand a year you had. In addition taxed on your estimated personal possessions in your home such as jewelry, pianos etc. And no deductions for anything. You can find this info with the 1909 C-ville Land book. You basically had to pay taxes on everything you had in this town in 1909. The Federal Government copied C-ville in 1913 and started an income tax, but didn't do the tax on cash in the bank (not really). But I suppose the Occupy C-ville would like everything taxed as was 1909 C-ville.
Brock and Wow- thank you.
Restrore the Republic- the World is round! Imagine that. Thank you for informing me............
but you still refuse to tell me, or anyone else, what "they" want!
"They" refuse to tell me, or anyone else, what "they" want.
So the fact that "they" are NOT being denied their Constitutional rights means nothing to you.
Why don't you start a movement to get your "notesters" to get some candidates together who will back what you want- whatever that may be. Then, perhaps, your movement might get some people who would be able to move your movement forward. Perhaps the tickets of Peta Lindsey/Yari Osario or Stewart Alexander/Alejandro Mendoza could be your candidates of choice. Who knows? They are registered. I am sure that they would be more than happy to come down here and play in your sandbox.
I do believe that you may be "one (or two) tokes over the line............", but you may find it all in George Orwell's "1984- it was a very good year.
but please let us know what the heck you really want!
Lets just hope theres a lot of snow in January, and we can all put our time to better use!
Wow,
"Has there been anyone from Occupy Charlottesville that has come to any of these newpaper boards and tried to explain or engage in any discussion without just arrogantly waving those with an opposing opinion away with a condescending attitude just as they did at the council meeting and as you just did?"
Yes, there was. They were very articulate and thoughtful, and got the same noise as usual from people like HarryD, who had little to offer in constructive rebuttal. I agree that there are some real concerns abut a public park being turned into a camp ground, and the individuals it can attract who are not about protest.
Yet, the reaction of violence and ridicule that has been offered to OWS, claiming they are dirty and disorderly and threatening, while gun toting Tea Party protesters are treated as mild mannered patriots has caused me great concern as a Libertarian. I consider the Tea Party's suggestion of outright revolution to be far more truculent than someone simply suggesting they might want a little more competitive capitalism, or even socialism. As an American, in a Democratic Society, they have a right to say so and vote so.
I hope the protestors can find a private location to camp, and march in the streets all night if they want to.
Old timer, We have hope they set up "camp" very near your home.
Old Timer- please tell us what they want......?
We live in a representative democracy.......
Gun toting? L-E-G-A-L-L-Y !!!!
the Tea Party battered everyone by V-O-T-I-N-G !!!!!!!
Wow stated ,"Problem is we do understand."
Cool!
Please state your "we" understanding and I look forward to reading your verbiage. I would really enjoy your explanation of an understanding articulated with verbiage here. And maybe you can explain who "we" is? Thanks! I doubt you can/will do it as most people claim a consensus they do not have.
I fear more ignorant verbiage that resonances at the frequency of hate will follow.
And HarryD, I dunno, do you need another six-pack? Just askin'?
OK, the hate displayed. I simply quoted the United States Constitution. My interest and right to participate in this discussion can be simply proved. I have blood and a new born blood in Virginia. Then, my backyard.. Yes they are here everyday and these people are educated, passionate people that cause no danger of a gang like activity, Like Woodstock, these people ae not going to rape, murder and destroy the working man or woman.
Just the opposite, most are educated and work in very respectable places. I do not tell others not to speak or print, because as long as it is constructive we that can learn and compromise have a chance.
I remember Kent State and Chicago during the convention. i agree that it seems that many have varying messages and the issues presented seem to broad, not unlike the tea baggers. but, they can vote and assemble and I think that is a good thing.
By the way, it was Jefferson who I quoted and if you were to be able to see who pays taxes for the park {tax payers], you just ay find the very people assembling pay more than there fair share.
Have a good weekend and notational non religious Holiday. Me, I say - I 'm thankful for the right to assemble anywhere that is not private property and I am thankful those with views different than mine can speak thier mind.
Best wishes.
Restore the Republic: You like to use, “verbiage,” don’t you? Sounds like you learned a new word. You seem to be the one that likes to articulate with verbiage. I try to avoid it. It makes one sound pompous and, quite frankly, a windbag. If you truly wanted Occupy Charlottesville to be understood and accepted by people in Charlottesville you would avoid it. But I rather think your inflated perception of spouting classic college textbook jargon as making yourself look more intelligent than the rest of us will prevent you from truly engaging anyone except yourself. Occupy Charlottesville’s problem is ‘their emperor has no clothes.’ But they sure can pretend he does.
who was that occupier who owned the pit bull that had "spent the last 30 years in prison" and had been rejected by pacem and the crossings because he owned a dog? his plea was that he didn't have anywhere else to go..(out of charlottesville would be a good place!) i suggest the majority of the occupiers are the disenfranchised homeless who like being close to the haven and their tax free job of panhandling on the mall.
"Restore the Republic: You like to use, “verbiage,” don’t you? Sounds like you learned a new word."
All text is essentially verbiage. LOL
"The manner in which something is expressed in words"
I will not deny having a command of the King's English. I do not deny having numerous college degrees. I am not exactly sure how to respond to your silly rant(s), but if you are not sure about the definition of the word "verbiage" you may find the definition in a dictionary if you even understand the concept of a dictionary. Or, know how to look up a word! Optimism is perhaps a word that still possibly exasperates you but I think even a single cell amoeba like you is capable of learning. If you respond, and respond you probably will in a verbiage challenged state, I will try to answer in words that have two or three letters if that helps?
So much hate here and lots of ignorance. Peace people! Chill!
uuuh RtR do you feel very loving right now? you don't sound like it!
The part that really infuriates me is that Occupiers in the park CAN'T stand on thier own feet in taking care of themselves. They can't pay for a decent place to sleep/pee. Many don't have money for food, clothing. WHY? because they sit on behinds-Lee Park for weeks. They are dependent leaches sucking up taxpayer benefits. Bottom line:They are DEMOCRATS wearing Dirty occupy clothes! Get out of town! You are disgusting. Your cause is losing ground. Good news, soon you WON'T be copulating in Lee Park.
Do me a favor. Once the filthy crew pulls up the tents/bedding Lee Park, bring in the bleach and bug spray. And PLEASE haul the slimy sofa to the dump burn pile. Invite the city council over for the last group meal served in the park. Give Kristen and Dave the honor of eating within the sofa. I hear samples of bedbugs and lice are being collected as we speak and the hospitals report a rise, rate/STDs. Nasty business.
I have been attempting to compare the occupy movement to something else in my personal experience, and the best I can come up with is the Aquarian hopes and aspirations of my own generation in the 1960's: all about love. However, the mutations of this agenda often took shape in words and behavior which would not likely be mistaken as an expression of love. But the movement then was sired by a growing protest against the Vietnam War and a distaste for conventional politics, erupting in demonstrations, of which the Chicago police riots during the 1968 Democratic Convention is a memorable example.
But back then, there was a clear understanding of what people were protesting, and well defined targets of the protest movement. This appears to be missing from the occupy movement, at least for now. It would seem that this series of comments to the Hook article would be an ideal place to state the perceived problems and propose an agenda to resolve them, yet this has not happened, aside from some amorphous thoughts by RtR about loving, puzzle pieces coming together and the end of war, starvation, etc., when everyone "gets it."
And so, the bystanders, of which I am one, look for yet other points of comparison and many have concluded (as have I) that the occupiers are very much like small children who are angry because they don't like something and yet are unable, or unwilling, to say specifically what they don't like or how to fix it. Maybe "the peas are touching the mashed potatoes."
I am not sure how anyone can be persuaded to support a movement which evidently is as lacking in purpose as it is in leadership. They present as a "herd," in which each member takes some measure of comfort, and perhaps of empowerment, by the presence of others like themselves. Like cattle, they deplete the resources of one place, then move (or are moved) to another. But this is a human herd which may also present an opportunity for a powerful and inspiring leader whose personal ideas and motives may play out in very different ways then mere encampments. For now, the greatest challenge to the movement will probably be the weather. Come spring, we'll see what they've become.
Restore the republic:
Verbiage: "a profusion of words usually with little or obscure content"
a manner of expressing oneself (as in)
the Occupy Charlottesville people guarded their verbiage so jealously.
Go for the silly rant all you want, I have a couple degrees myself. I just don't care if anyone knows it. As for hate, there's only hate in your eyes and speech. In my eyes, I am asking why you would try to insult everyone with an opposing viewpoint as ignorant because that sounds rather hateful. I'm asking what Occupy Charlottesville wants to accomplish that they can accomplish, rather than just a live in feel good fest. No hate. If Occupy Charlottesville wasn't ruining a park to the point that the grass must be reseeded by camping in it, and getting special fees waived, etc. (and I'm not part of the tea party), having assorted violence which required police, I would have no problem with them at all. You are the one looking down on all of us.
Sorry the commoners with such lack of command of the English language bothered you. If we're all so beneath you, why bother to come here and insult us? To put us in our place? Didn't work. We will still voice our questions.
Restore the republic- again, just what is it that "you" or "they" want?
"We"- just what it means- W-E........all of us? represenative democracy is "WE" have here.
Six pack? oh yes, please.
Funny. If I turn off my electricity, water and heat, the City would condemn my home as being unfit for human occupancy and board it up. I wonder if I pitched a tent inside and put a portapotty outside would I be allowed to stay in my home?
Cville Eye, Yes Sir you have made the best suggestion. How dare the city attempt in citing others who skirt the law or bend code. Lawsuits up the road. City Council laid the carpet.
Amen Brother- well, you forgot about elections down the road.........anything for a vote
@Michael Sutton
The quote about Dissent being the highest form of patriotism is misattributed.
Progressive historian Howard Zinn said it. Jefferson did not, I repeat, did not say it. Strike that false quote from your repertoire.
I think our million-plus war dead would disagree with it anyway. That line is a lot like the Occupiers- naive, self-aggrandizing. It endows undeserved dignity to whining. Bring us some solutions- that would be a much higher form of patriotism than establishing a Council-endorsed commune in yours and my park.
If you really want to know something about the Occupy Movement read (or listen) to http://www.democracynow.org/2011/11/25/occupy_everywhere_michael_moore_n...
It will help clarify what's going on and why it's good there are "no demands."
Thanks HarryD. You are correct. The Dems Charlottesville will do anything for votes, including breaking their own code and laws. Hopefully one day the Supreme Court will have reason to throw the local scums on their faces.
Kay: Thanks for the link. I had read this before and I really just wanted to hear someone say it here. It is really ironic that this movement allows one of the 1% (Michael Moore) to speak for them.
Mark November 26th, 2011 | 6:34am
@Michael Sutton
The quote about Dissent being the highest form of patriotism is misattributed.
Point well taken, it does nothing but dilute the discussion. I also doubt it was an original by him, that you quoted.
This is a quote from Ode - Jeremy Mercer | July/August 2010 issue
' However it wasn’t until a landmark study conducted at the University of Virginia in the 1970s that dissent ceased being an ephemeral ideal and started becoming a tangible commodity that might be exploited. Researchers were analyzing the dynamics of jury deliberations, and after viewing hundreds of hours of videotape, they noticed a curious trend. When there was friction and fighting among jurors, the jury engaged in a better decision-making process than when it arrived smoothly at a unanimous verdict.
As a rule, the dissent resulted in more information heard at the trial being taken into consideration and a greater variety of perspectives voiced by jurors. There was, however, one small problem. The person who instigated this discord, the principle dissenter, tended to be ridiculed and ostracized by other jurors. The abuse was so blatant that when mock juries were held, the student assigned to play the dissenter actually requested “combat pay” because the role was so harrowing.
“Dissent makes the group as a whole smarter and leads to more divergent thinking, but the people who stand up with those sorts of opinions often get beaten up for it,” says Charlan Nemeth, the lead psychologist on those studies. “The results made a lot of us sit up and ask, ‘What exactly is going on here?’”
The University of Virginia study unleashed a wave of researchers, Nemeth at the fore, who sought to understand why these scorned dissenters sparked such creative advantages in their groups. One early discovery was that dissent came in two categories, each with distinctive benefits. '
Mark thank you and I will not use it again. Nice to be kept on my toes.
Kay- and that is why Michael Moore is so unimportant..............
Hey TheHook, why don't you hook us up with an Occupy Cville webcam? I'm up for some drum circles.
Check police reports today to see if the CPD was called to the First United Methodist Church TODAY at approximately 1230hrs. because people from the park were threatening soup kitchen workers. Check.
Lets move to Rosemount in Ivy, there we will find a very hospitable group that supports us and will also pay for our needs while we protest.
Let us move to Belmont Park.
Well, the Occupiers have accomplished one goal, and that is to get people to think. There is now a National public conversation occurring about the social and economic conditions in this country. An apathetic populace has found a voice, on both sides of an issue.
The most significant dialog occurring right now is about who? is working and who? is not. At both extremes this is the crux of the matter, really two sides to a one sided debate. From the tea partier, one familiar mantra we hear is how social programs and “freeloaders” are bankrupting our country on a Federal Bankroll. From the occupier we hear how a leisure class lives exploits the people who are actually working. Both sides of this debate tend to catastrophize their arguments to make them more persuasive.
Most people are busy working hard in their individual pursuits, that they do not invest their spirit in this debate. However, when the “Bigger Picture” begins to affect them at a personal level, it can no longer be ignored and they are drawn in.
These are some “Big Picture issues” where maybe people can find common ground:
-there has been massive fraud perpetrated on the American public, through collusion by individuals in both the State and Commerce. It has been going on for a long time, is becoming increasingly more divisive, and has reached a tipping point. People want Justice.
-the Financial industry has become corrupted. By and large the public trust has eroded for the larger institutions, and greed has become so conspicuous it can no longer be ignored. People want accountability.
- People need income to survive. In many cases people accept work for this reason alone. The American worker, in general, has been reduced to a role of servitude. An individual’s political beliefs by and large are of no consequence in this reality. There is little production occurring, the manufacturing base has gone overseas, and other productive industries have become mechanized to reduce labor costs (like farming, for example). People want a good livelihood.
-our Nation was founded on principles. People fear that if they do not exercise their rights, they will lose them. The popularity of being politically active and socially aware have returned in our culture. People want freedom.
There is enough blame to go around for each person. Any solutions involve some sort of sacrifice at an individual level. As change occurs, it’s outcome depends on upright personal values, self-discipline, preparedness, and civic responsibility. Be introspective, and try to live true to yourself.
Something is happening. More power to those among us who approach this with courage in their hearts and Love for their fellow humans.
Now there is Hope. There are some good things going on right here in Charlottesville. It is still a place where the Bill of Rights is celebrated. Police are not arresting people for expressing their political dissent. There is a vibrant economy. There are many not-for-profit social causes. There is a renaissance in food, arts and culture…
Lastly, to everyone: this Holiday season please (re) read/watch Dickens “A Christmas Carol”
Love!
Rosemount they will help us out there
People need income to survive. In many cases people accept work for this reason alone"
"accept work" ? How about carrying thier share of th load?
"Now there is Hope. There are some good things going on right here in Charlottesville. It is still a place where the Bill of Rights is celebrated. Police are not arresting people for expressing their political dissent"
If these people do get arrested it won't be for expressing their politcal views it will be for breaking the law. The will not be charged with " excessive expression" they will be charged with trespassing.
Society is a pyramid those at the bottom far outnumber those at the top. The people at the bottom ALWAYS have the votes to win any election. The reason they don't win is because deep down middle america KNOWS that life isn't "free" just because you camp out for a month and whine.
I would imagine that most of their parents are happy to just have them out of the basement.
veerhoff69- dribble, dribble.....but what is it that these "notesters" want? Tell me please, "then go about your business".
Mr Marshall,
Respectfully sir, it is a matter of perspective. To me, Society is analogous more to a food web or ecosystem, where everything is interdependent. Surely there are organisms stronger at the top. Should the balance be disrupted, those that depend on predation are far more vulnerable than those with an ability to adapt.
Some people choose to work in a specific field to pursue their passion. To extend "carrying your share" is using your time constructively to benefit your community in the work you do, but that's probably what you mean. I guess this context was lost in my post.
Mr D,
Respectfully sir I used this forum the say what I thought. You can read up what other people are advocating for as well.
I am personally interested in Peace, Tolerance, and Conservation of Resources. I also think that it is nice to post a little Love and Verbiage for fun.
And to stay on topic with the article:
It is silly to suggest people cannot camp in public. There is a woman who has camped out in front of the Whitehouse for over 30 years. Most major moments in the history of this country have depended on camping out at some point. It is still the most popular recreational past-time.
And yes, hygiene and sanitation are extremely important. Occupiers must pay their bills also. If they are allowed to, they can leave the park in better condition than when they arrived.
Good Night.
Mr. 69- (I guess)- the article is about the ouster of the occupuds and notesters, and if you comment, hopefully it will be about the subject matter.
So, how do you feel about the subject matter?
The occupy movement seems to be an early symptom of social instability resulting
from a period of prolonged economic distress with the highest levels of unemployment
and under-employment since the 1930s. During the 1930s there were also tent cities,
bread lines, soup kitchens and signs of social instability including rioting. President
Roosevelt did what he could to put people to work by creating the CCC and WPA,
putting money directly into the pockets of working people by giving them work. And here in Charlottesville, adjacent to Lee Park is the public library, originally built during the Roosevelt
years as the Post Office. Throughout Albemarle County there are schools built during the
Roosevelt years with public money that, like the library downtown, still serve the public 80 odd years later.
These days the idea of putting working people to work by direct investment of government money is called socialism by our tea party friends, but consider the benefits of Roosevelt's
program of creating jobs. All of us still benefit from the money spent back in those days.
Lately the idea seems to be to give the bankers and Wall Street crowd billions of dollars
in bailout money that will somehow dribble down to the working people in jobs that the uber rich will create with it. So far this has not worked very well, it seems, but the Wall Streeters have done very well, indeed, with record profits after the public assistance they received from the taxpayers, bailout money taken from working people's taxes and transferred to the bankers by the direct intervention of the Treasury and Federal Reserve Bank under the "conservative" Bush administration and later by Obama.
So is it any wonder that the out of work working people are demonstrating their unhappiness with the level of dribble down or trickle down that has come to them after the hundreds of billions of dollars spent on bailing out the banks? What's wrong with bailing out the working class with some jobs from public works programs. It is a sure fire way to create jobs, a lot more certain and immediate than giving multi million dollar bonusses at taxpayer expense to already uber rich bankers has been, that's for sure. Ah, but it's socialism to give working class people a job building school buildings or bridges, but good capitalism to give billions of dollars of taxpayer money to provide multimillion dollar bonusses to rich bankers. go figure.
But Mr. Henry D is quite correct, I believe, in pointing out the need for political action as a follow up to this initial and useful period of nationwide demonstration. I do think the Occupy movement needs to organize politically, not in support of either of the current two national political parties, who both seem too eager to bend and bow in service to Wall Street. Rather, it seems to me the Occupy movement, which has no shortage of intellectual horsepower, needs to organize itself into a political movement, much as the Tea Party has done, and use the vote to change things.
It seems clear enough that they have enough support to make a difference. Even one or two senate seats would be enough to wield great power. So, before the economic distress results in a level of social instability that could disrupt social cohesion and result in revolution, such as was the case in 1776, it does seem worth the effort to try ot organize politically and gain some traction at the national level through the existing framework.