Music mayhem: Should live acts play on Market Street?
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"I'd like to contribute to a new, expanding, blossoming district," says Black Market Moto Saloon owner Matteus Frankovich.Courteney Stuart -
Lunchbox owners Daniel Heilberg and Joe Young say they stopped the live music when the city issued a warning.Courteney Stuart
Two weeks after the city shut down the Black Market Moto Saloon for hosting live music without a special use permit, the doors are open for dinner, and owner Matteus Frankovich has applied for the permit, hoping to bring bands back in the fall over the objections of some Woolen Mills neighbors.
"The very root of the issue goes back to Bel Rio where someone's partying on, having wild nights without respect for neighbors," says Frankovich, recalling the defunct Belmont establishment that wreaked havoc on the sleep habits of nearby residents during its run from 2008 to 2010. "The difference," Frankovich notes, "is that I'm greatly concerned about my neighbors, and we've taken practical steps to keep music from affecting them."
Those steps include such soundproofing measures as baffling and a fortified interior wall, which was installed before the restaurant's opening in February. Frankovich says he would stand outside the building during shows to make sure the noise levels didn't seem unreasonable, and that a decibel meter reading showed the level never rose above the 75db limit set by City code for areas in its "light industrial" zones including East Market Street. In addition, Frankovich, who lives in the neighborhood and has a young child, notes that he tried to schedule shows only on the weekends and make them end by midnight.
Those efforts, however, didn't stop the city from shutting him down temporarily.
On Saturday night, July 7, Frankovich says, City Neighborhood planning boss Jim Tolbert descended on Black Market with fire and police officials to revoke the establishment's Certificate of Occupancy, forcing diners to leave mid-meal. Frankovich calls the move "unnecessary," claiming he'd been communicating with city zoning officials and had believed the problems could be worked out even as he acknowledges he'd failed to apply for a special use permit, required of any business that wishes to offer amplified music.
"I'd think Charlottesville, being a city of the arts, a city of culture, would support that rather than throw up obstacles," says Frankovich, who contends he was singled out for punishment since another new eatery, The Lunchbox, across Meade Avenue, was also offering live music without a permit and was not forcibly shut down.
Tolbert, however, says Frankovich's situation was unique and that the shut-down occurred only after Frankovich showed "blatant" disregard for written warnings.
In addition to writing "no live music" on his certificate of occupancy when the restaurant opened, Tolbert says, he delivered a handwritten note on Friday, July 6, warning Frankovich, after an arrest-laden fight outside the restaurant the night before, to cease the live music.
"We notified him on Friday; he ignored it on Saturday," says Tolbert, claiming that the city had previously had difficulties with Frankovich over live music at the Twisted Branch Tea Bazaar on the Downtown Mall and that the written warning followed a month-earlier emailed warning.
"Because he had not heeded our warnings and he had more live music scheduled, we decided the only way to get his attention was to zero out his occupancy," Tolbert explains.
Frankovich, however, disputes the suggestion that he deliberately flouted rules or ignored a written notice.
"They slipped it under the door, and an employee put it on my desk unopened," he says. "I hadn't even seen it."
While the city allowed Frankovich to reopen the following week, he says the absence of music has hurt his bottom line.
"Sales are suffering," says Frankovich, noting that many of the patrons on hand for the live music acts were Woolen Mills residents excited to have a live music venue within easy walking distance.
While professing sympathy for the plight of restaurant owners struggling to attract customers, and describing herself as a live music lover, Woolen Mills neighborhood association president Victoria Dunham says she can't support live shows at either Black Market or The Lunchbox.
"I hope we're not going to end up in another situation that's painted as cool hipsters vs. mean fuddy duddies," she says, mentioning complaints she heard from residents who were bothered by the late night noise not only from the shows themselves but from people shouting while returning to their cars late at night.
At first, because Woolen Mills neighborhood is zoned light industrial, Dunham says, she and others didn't believe they had any recourse, unlike Belmont, which received some sound relief when the city lowered the allowed decibels in that "Neighborhood Commercial Corridor" from 75 to 55db between 11pm and 6am. Now, she says, she's hoping the city will reject Frankovich's application for the special use permit.
"This is painful," she says, "but as long as it's disturbing people in my neighborhood, it's an issue."
Both Tolbert and Dunham say that while shows at the Lunchbox, which were held outside on the patio, may have been louder, the owners of that small eatery responded quickly to the city's warning and stopped hosting acts.
"I knew nothing about the special use permit," says Lunchbox co-owner Daniel Heilberg, who says that the cancellation of live music has hurt his bottom line. As a small business, he says, he simply can't afford the $1,500 fee the City charges to apply for a special use permit– particularly since the fee doesn't guarantee approval– and he wonders why the fee is so high. (According to Tolbert, the fee covers "administrative expenses" and is in line with what similar-sized Virginia localities charge.)
"It would be one thing if you got some or all of it back if the application was rejected," notes Heilberg, who says he currently doesn't plan to pursue live music and will instead focus on the food service and catering sides of his business.
The issue will be discussed at a Planning Commission meeting on September 11, and Frankovich says he's welcoming input from Woolen Mills residents about the issue.
"I'm trying to do something that enlivens the culture of Charlottesville," he says. "I"m not trying to have a sloppy late-night rock club that creates problems with the neighborhood."
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As this story was going to press, the Hook learned that Woolen Mills Neighborhood Association President Dunham, citing online "vitriol," announced her resignation. "The hyperbole amps up and feeds on itself, and we have chaos," she wrote in an email to neighbors. "It's just careless and hurtful, and utterly unnecessary."
One neighbor, however, reveals that Dunham has engaged in some online vitriol of her own, as postings on her Facebook page, in apparent reference to the Black Market Moto Saloon, refer to an "infestation of vermin" and "hipster douchebags" in the neighborhood.
"It makes it really hard to support local music when the douchiest musicians also happen to be the most shrill and get their panties in the tightest twist," she appears to have written. Dunham did not immediately respond to a reporter's request for comment.
74 comments
$1,500 to apply to have live music.
That's a crime.
@Sticker Shock - they can make that fee up in cover charges in one weekend or less. Now, I do believe that if it is rejected, the funds (or most of it) should be "refunded". I also believe they should have CLEAR rules to abide by and if they violate them a suspension of the use permit until they correct the problems.
Now, the fight outside one of these establishments, unfortunately - with "clubs" which is what these both intended to be, would come drinking and people who just can't for whatever reason "get along". This would mean in increase in Police presence and perhaps manpower too. Recall Maxx/Traxx? At 1:00 AM half the force was outside to make sure nothing happened.
I find it truly appalling that this can not be reasonably done with all happy with the outcome. Such is society - no one is willing to be reasonable.
If a special permit is not approved, the entire fee should be refunded. The city employees are already being paid with taxpayer money to perform their duties.
Furthermore, to make patrons get up and leave their meals on the tables, this is justy plain absurd. The police department ends up looking like the bad guy instead of Tolbert.
On Moto Saloon's loudest and worst day, and my office being 75 feet away, I could hardly hear the outdoor band over our air conditioning and television.
So the certificate of occupancy says "no live music", and the certificate of occupancy is posted on the wall of the business. Seems like plenty of notice to me to the business owner.
And yet Matteus booked live music from the inception of his restaurant?
I would deny him the special use permit. There is a penalty for deliberately flouting the law.
And I heard that the "fight" was actually a 5 on 1 beating by some bikers on a civilian that resulted in the hospitalization of the victim. Not a good thing to have this happening in a residential area.
"The police department ends up looking like the bad guy instead of Tolbert."
The only one I see looking like a bad guy is the one who knowingly violated the law. He's lucky he was allowed to reopen at all, especially if the story about the biker beating finally getting the city's attention is true.
What is wrong with the City of Charlottesville that it makes enjoyment of live music so difficult? We need a policy that respects reasonable enjoyment of live music. Time to take the issue to the City Council, we also need a policy that doesn't subject small businesses to the potential loss of $1500 should the City deny the special use permit.
I live a block from here and I have never had a problem with the Saloon having music. Not once have I been bothered by either music or people leaving late at night. Furthermore, there is some residential across the street but it is not next door. I get more bothered by people driving down the street at a high rate of speed (Even with the speed bumps) or blaring their music out of their cars.
I do have to say that the night the Lunchbox had their Bikini Contest (Really are we not better than that??) that at 11 pm we could hear their amplified noise. Of course it was nice night and we did have the windows open.
I have also been disgusted that our Wollen Mills president is talking to the media without their being a formal meeting of the group. She does not represent all of us in her comments, I really hope that the City approves the Use Permit. I will be there for the meeting in support.
I'd like to have seen the cops try to shut Tolbert down mid-meal.
The Neighborhood Development Services office is bloated at a multi-million dollar per year budjet. And on holidays, such as MLK day, they get several days off. They closed for MLK day plus the day before or after it this year, can't remeber which, basically creating a four day weekend for staffers.
NDS is a huge drag on the budget and could be halved and still function effectively.
Miss Vicky, if the Birkenstock fits, wear it, "I hope we're not going to end up in another situation that's painted as cool hipsters vs. mean fuddy duddies,"
I bet there's plenty of business for proctologists in good old Ch'ville, this neighborhood certainly has a client base for that specialty. That's why I live in New Orleans. 55db, my phone rings louder than that.
I was born there, went to school there and now as I read about the city's little soap operas I generally laugh a lot about how incredibly impacted y'all seem to be.
I like this place and hope it can remain. However if the city slips a note under your door it should be a priority to see what it says. You are a business owner sir you have a responsibility to your employees and customers both. To stay in business is your goal. To say it ended up on your desk unopened and you never opened it is no excuse for a owner. You have to be better than that. You know the city is on your tail. So do EVERYTHING you can do to keep them off. With the bel rio comparos you know this town don't forget even bringing up the tea bazaar. I'd say they have got yo lil biker bar in their sites whatchoo gone do now? See yall Thursday night!
Music, street lights, trucks - it doesn't take much to outrage the small but vocal minority of chronic complainers in Woolen Mills.
I find it interesting that, while people on another news outlet's discussion thread are railing against Second Amendment rights (you know, Toscano's ilk saying "There is no threat of government abridgement of our rights. We should ban assault weapons."), the city decides that they need armed police present when they shut the guy's business down in the middle of dining time. They could not have waited until, say, 11am the next day when he was arriving to an empty eatery to open the place?
Now, a $1,500 permit fee? Let's pretend the city spends 30 man hours studying and approving/rejecting the permit request. At $50/hour in cost, that gets you to $1,500. So, when Tolbert clearly lies and says "the fee is to cover administrative costs," what else could he be lying about to verify his story? This "fee" is a tax enacted by the city to penalize businesses, probably because the libs in the city thought "they can afford it, so let's charge them."
Finally, what Chville should do about live music is what cities do with adult theaters: zone them so they are located in larger industrial areas away from residential areas. If locals hate the music so much, then just work to move the venues to a single, commercial area. But, make no mistake about it: if you have live music late into the night, you will have drinks and fights.
R.I.P.: Brian Keith
Pose a clear choice for the neighbors and the City, would be my advice: let them choose between allowing either live acoustic music at reasonable low level volumes or recorded music played through a killer sound system at deafening volumes. The Woollen Mills residents have a right to peace and quiet in their own neighborhood, and having an elephant trumpeting is not likely to be popular in any residential neighborhood. Letting this club edit the neighborhood would be a mistake -- and it would be grand-fathered on for the next club owner too. Possibly if the bands could perform on a barge, boat or platform floating in the river this might not be something the City could easily regulate.
Hey Mr. Snow screw you, the complaint about truck is warranted since we have very limited side walks in our neighborhood. No room to get out of the way of an 18 wheeler rolling down the street to the storage facility. As for music and lights I am all for it.
Okay, I used to live directly on Market Street. BOTH the Lunchbox and Black Market periodically created intolerable amounts of noise over the last few months.
I personally made several calls about noise to the police - but only after I tried to work with owners personally. I called each establishment when I heard noise, told them I was a neighbor, and asked if they could turn down the music a little so I could get to work in the morning (many of these loud live events were on Weds or Thu nights). Not once did someone turn down the music. So much for "working with the community."
Some of the events (like the bikini contest) lasted until 4am at the Lunchbox. Even on a weekend night, that makes it impossible for a normal person to get sleep. I commend Black Market for attempting to sound-proof their establishment. Lunchbox, however, held outdoor, amplified concerts. Once, I was curious to see how big the crowd was at an especially loud concert. There were 3 people in attendance, one of whom was the girlfriend of the musician. Who were they really serving here?
Both establishments created large amounts of noise in the street because patrons would exit the building drunk, and then scream at each other. I also personally witnessed drunk people getting into cars and driving away. How does THAT contribute to Charlottesville?
I moved away from Cville last month. The awful experience I had living on Market St was a factor in my decision to leave town. I have lived in cities my whole adult life, and I have never encountered businesses that were so unwilling to work with the community, or who treated working adults with such disregard. If Charlottesville doesn't figure out long-term solutions to a growing population with disparate visions of city life, I can picture its charms quickly wearing off for new residents like me.
The police didn't shut the Saloon down in the middle of dinner, they shut it down the day before with an official notice posted on the door. Just like every other official notice they gave the owner, it was completely ignored, so the officials came in person to make the people who the owner allowed to gather in violation of the law leave. Of course they brought police with them for protection, that's what we have police for! Of course those police are armed, they always are and would be stupid not to be in a situation like that.
A poster above makes a very good point, the $1500 is nowhere near enough to cover administrative costs considering that the application will take far more than 50 man hours of administrative and planning commission time. As an advocate for smaller government, I too would like to see more in the way of the costs of trying to game the system being borne by those who would do so and not by the rest of us who pay taxes.
I fully support citizens in any neighborhood asking that existing law be enforced. Without some order and respect for the zoning process everyone in the city loses, especially those of us across town in areas like Fry Springs or Rose Hill who may well be facing similar issues in the future.
The musicians and live music supporters who came out and put many hard hours of work into crafting a new ordinance for music venues ( I am one) have also been shown a lot of disrespect here. Matteus, who was also at the meetings with the city, flagrantly violating the law when he knew what he was doing was illegal will do serious damage to the compromise that has been worked out and increase calls for it to be reconsidered. Anyone who would try to open another establishment in a similar zoning and obey the law in doing so has just had his life made much more difficult by this jerk because of the ill will and distrust he's created. That isn't bringing culture, it's killing it.
CC, $1500 for a permit is outrageous. I regularly stage outdoor events in bars near residential neighborhoods and in stores' parking lots. I submit a permit app. 3 or 4 weeks before, the council meets, votes and approves. If I have a tent over 40ft, I pay a $50 Fire Marshall inspection and provide a copy of my $2 Million liability coverage and we rock. Then I have Sheriffs available to let the complainers know that I can produce 92db until 11PM on weekdays. You see my government sees my businesses as a value to the community. Last time I was in Hookville [3 years ago] I was there to consider moving back. I found it a place of pettiness exhibited in just this sort of issues. I do a lot of medium size Bike Nights and Car Cruise Nights, 200 to 300 motorcycles or cars on a Wednesday in the neighborhood sounds like fun doesn't it? Maybe I should offer these guys a free consult on productions as fundraiser for a legal fight.
If any one of these business owners had reached out to me about their plans, we could have had discussion about what they wanted in the neighborhood v. what I (and other residents) wanted. They did no such thing. There wasn't a need to call in law enforcement until the business owners refused to talk with their neighbors. I want to live in a neighborhood that is friendly to music, culture, and nightlife. BUT, there is a right way and a wrong way to go about bringing in new events to a neighborhood. This was hands down the wrong way.
I gotta say, even INVITING the neighborhood to attend an event at Black Market or the Lunchbox would have gone a long way to ease things. I felt thoroughly unwelcome at both establishments. The Lunchbox has a regular crowd (the same loud, very drunk people every night). Black Market charges high covers for events (compared to elsewhere in Cville). Why would I pay to attend a concert I can hear from my house?
Some of the commenters here are confused about Special Use Permits. This is not a permit to hold an event. Once you have it you may hold live music indefinitely. Some zones in the city allow live music without a permit, and others don't allow it at all. Moto happens to be in between, and the $1,500 pays for the planning commission to evaluate the merits on a case by case basis. This is not that expensive, and I'd rather the business pay it than all taxpayers.
I live in the Woolen Mills and support live music at Moto. I wish the owner would have respected the process from the beginning, but I would support a permit going forward. I believe the owner has mitigated noise impacts, and, if not, he'll just get slammed with a noise ordinance violation, which would still be in full effect.
I'm tired of Woolen Mills neighbors having the reputation of being anti-_______ [fill-in-the-blank] based on the strident opinions of a few people. Many of us are against things that are truly detrimental to the neighborhood, but actively for the things that improve quality of life. This is a balanced position that often gets lost.
This episode establishes beyond dispute that C'ville is the lamest town on the planet. And that describes all parties to the dispute, the local rags and their "coverage", the city government, and everyone who lives here, including me.
So the planning commission for a small city assesses the merits of the applicant's business, request, physical plant and, perhaps, even spends an evening there. Assuming the planning commission is three people (pretty reasonable for a small town) OR they decide they only need three people to vote on a permit application, $1,500 is still ridiculous.
If you observe the way this city does business--from its council to its departments--you can see that political hacks can always justify that the "examination and approval process can take a long time as the commission deliberates...blah, blah, blah."
In a city this small and intimate, three people could wrap this up in the normal course of a full day's work, or 24 man hours. The know the neighborhood, they know the venue, they know the players...this isn't NYC, you know.
R.I.P.: Broderick Crawford
@honeycomb- Really? Created a 4 day weekend out of MLK day? Did you mean the STATE HOLIDAY LEE/JACKSON DAY on Friday, followed by MLK day on Monday?
Next you'll say they took a holiday the week after Christmas too...
Every nation has been ruined by its small minded bureaucrats that exercise every little bit of power they think they have. They worship statute and regulation over law and basic humanity.
Jim Tolbert is just another example of this soulless breed. May his indigestion increase.
We have a neighborhood pub in Woolen Mills. It's called Beer Run...
How is Tolbert the bad guy here?
Dude gets a certificate of occupancy. It says "no live music" He violates it. City shuts him down. The city is the bad guy?
Or... is it... get CoO... violate it... whine to the press about the man that "doesn't support the arts and a vibrant community"?
Don't like the rules in that neighborhood? Open up somewhere else.
Sounds like Mr. Hipster owner did everything right except for pay the man... and then whine when he got called on it.
@New Reality,
Thank you for the helpful explanation.
Seems to me that if the permits were free or cheap there would be a lot more applications and applicants wouldn't give them as much consideration. That would mean a lot more half as*ed applications, and a lot more work on the part of the city. Which would in turn mean more taxpayer money for business people and developers to just mess around and test the waters. $1500 IS a lot of money - it should be. The owner needs to think carefully about the process and the application before diving in. And since when is it the taxpayers fault when businesses take on too much risk? Oh, yeah. Since all the banks failed and we bailed them out. I guess everyone is entitled to have the taxpayer bail out if they can't get their ducks in a row.
This guy is another one of those 30somethings who thinks he can ignore any law he doesn't like. This town is full of them. Making money off other peoples rights.
You could certainly hear the music for several blocks in each direction when the saloon had live music. That being said it is certainly not as bad as the daily noise, trash, traffic and parking problems that the waterpark just up Meade Ave causes. That Woolen Mills gem causes Meade Ave to look like RT 29 and converted a nice neighborhood park into Water Country USA.
This saddens me, as I love Black Market Moto. Matteus is a good guy, he'll get this sorted out. All I ever hear from the lunchbox is loud drunks shouting outdoors and their fairly frequent bikini contests where the entire neighborhood is treated to objectification of women over a PA. That's just gross.
As an aside - the food at Black Market is amazing, the stereo is always playing good music, and they have a really cool bar atmosphere. It's like getting beers in your buddy's garage (if you're into that vibe - which I am). For all of you who complain about how pretentious and overpriced the downtown mall is - you've got this great bar/restaurant around the corner.
I love Beer Run's food too but I've always felt like I was eating/drinking in a convenience store when I go there.
Beer Run is so 2008, you so 2000 and late
Oh gawd - the "arts" crybabies are at it again. Grow up, pay fee. You clearly knew about it, and chose to act as though the city is wrong and you are right and you know better.
As a group Charlottesville artists are discriminatory, and do little if anything to contribute to the development of community with their artistic gifts.
The fact that we have lots of artists who live here, whine about the laws here, and discriminate against against community members and act out with excessive volume does not mean we have an "arts scene" or that we are an "arts town".
Grow up.
Zack Morris, the Onesty Aquatic Center is wonderful for families, especially those of us who live in the neighborhood. I understand that childrens' laughter can be noisy, so maybe the lifeguards could institute a strict "no joy" policy out of deference to your refined sensibilities. How's that for a compromise?
The commentary goes on and on. But these 30somethings continue to talk around the issue, ignoring the law by trying to justify this guy's defiance of the law. Hey 30somethings: Grow up. Obey the law. Stop this incessant 30something whingeing.
I can't believe Matt played the child and the struggling small business cards...
Yep Mr. Sprouse, almost as lame as the "I'm running a neighborhood bar" act. If only that were true, the neighbors would be celebrating.
It's nowhere near as lame though as obtaining some private facebook posts, distorting them and then sending them to the media. That really takes the cake!
Speaking of cake, a little coffee shop would be nice there when that place goes under. Anyone else got ideas on what the space ought to be next?
obviously Tolbert already has a pre-determined idea about Mattaeus based on his comment about the Tea Bazarre... why don't bars on the corner catch this kind if flack? huh, I wonder... TOTAL BS!
Bars on the corner are legal. This bar could have been operated legally. It wasn't. That's why it caught flack. That's really, really, really simple to understand. Anyone who can't see that must have some pre-determined ideas of her own. I call BS on anyone who would support the place now that the facts are known.
The following clearly show why this business should NOT be awarded a special use permit:
On Saturday night, July 7, Frankovich says, City Neighborhood planning boss Jim Tolbert descended on Black Market with fire and police officials to revoke the establishment's Certificate of Occupancy, forcing diners to leave mid-meal. Frankovich calls the move "unnecessary," claiming he'd been communicating with city zoning officials and had believed the problems could be worked out even as he acknowledges he'd failed to apply for a special use permit, required of any business that wishes to offer amplified music.
"I'd think Charlottesville, being a city of the arts, a city of culture, would support that rather than throw up obstacles," says Frankovich, who contends he was singled out for punishment since another new eatery, The Lunchbox, across Meade Avenue, was also offering live music without a permit and was not forcibly shut down.
This guy has clearly and repeatedly shown that he is unwilling to abide bey the terms of any permit and is trying to play cat-and-mouse with the City. The $1500 is not a fee to cover the cost of the involvement by the Planning Commission. Where do you people live. It covers the cost of the city's staff have to evaluate the petition through onsite visitation, meeting with the owner, meeting with the neighbors, referencing code, and writing a report for the Planning Commission, appearing before the Planning Commission for the discussion and appearing before Council if it lands on on its desk. It also pays for staff's numerous onsite visits, notes and emails, and other communication. This is often done on the employee's time after 5 PM. If this guy can't stay in business without operating a night club, I suspect he knew this when he opened last winter. He, like the Occupiers, obviously feel that laws, rules, restrictions, regulations and permits are for other people.
Also, for you welfare-headed ninnies, why do you think its okay to keep people awake at night on weekends? Many people have to work. If you want to "party" have one in your own home and see what flack you get. For those of you who claim you live in Woolen Mills and you think that noise is fine, you are renters and you haven't made any investment in that neighborhood. You just move in, tear up and move on. Move on.
@Victoria Dunham, the reason you have some jerks in your neighborhood is because and others have worked consistently through the years to improve the quality of lie there. You have made an investment and you should not be dissuaded from doing so by a bunch do nothings.
@Max Frisson, stay in that garbage pit of New Orleans and put on as many shows as you wish. Those people are out there with you spending their welfare checks and stealing thing. I saw them on TV after katrina.
@**** , thanks for the humor.
Actually, I think the way to deal with it is go one step further. Start charging the businesses who cause the problems the cost of the poolice for their time when they are called. Breaking a permit rule and there is a fight outside your establishment? Add an extra grand. Make it HURT financially to be cheater.
And we should start requiring classes for every ninny in the area who thinks it would be just a great novel idea to open up some new eatery, and open their eyes to the reality of competition in a small town.
Cville Eye. I understand the SUP process. In the most simple terms, it is to allow the planning commission to make a case-by-case decision about zoning, but I commend you for your impressive list of steps that go into it. You did, however, forget to mention the cost of the ink for printing out the staff reports. Some of the $1500 goes to that as well.
Your dig against renters is unwarranted. They are not all "jerks." It is true that renters are less likely than you are to favor heavy-handed land use regulations, because many of them would like to buy a home one day themselves. They want to be able to afford one, even in town if possible. By the way, I do happen to own a home in the Woolen Mills and I believe a successful business will make the neighborhood a better place. I believe Matteus when he says live music will improve his offerings as a business, and increase his odds of staying around.
I agree that he should get a permit, but I'm not sure if we want to get into the habit of punishing business owners for their actions in the past, even if they are willing to abide by the law from now on, nor do I think the city has the legal grounds to do so.
Each day is filled with little character tests. This guy failed a lot of them. This is a character issue. Why should we trust him to obey the law in the future? Or is it just business to lie, cheat and try to steal from the taxpayers (by avoiding the $1500 fee)?
@New Reality, I never said that all renters are jerks. I probably said that he is. Why are you so concerned about this guy's new business when there quite a few old time residents in the neighborhood that have already been affected by loud drunks exiting his place of business late night? Are you suggesting that they must put with a bunch of crap in order to extend rights to him that he does not have? Why is he special? Why are the other residents not?
As for the $1500 fee, some of it goes to stock the city's bathroom with toilet paper that is so greatly needed.
Is the "new reality" that rules do not matter? Did you occupy Lee Park, drinking. It seems you are saying that society should allow everybody to do whatever he wishes even it it bother other people. Those people moved there because there was no night club there and if Council has any sense there won't be.
@New Reality
"It is true that renters are less likely than you are to favor heavy-handed land use regulations,"
Bogus. Yes, there are good renters; I was one at one time. But regulations have little to do with why renters are or are not able to buy. However, the truth is renters, as a rule, are not as invested in a neighborhood because, well, they aren't, literally. Too noisy? Just move on when the lease is up. A property owner has to sell their property, which is a LOT bigger expenditure in time and dollars.
So called business owners aren't the only ones who invest, and I never cease to be amazed at why a residential property owner should lose value while some guy who can't run a sub shop should be molly coddled. I am sick and tired of hearing about one more food place causing problems while good businesses that provide real jobs or other small businesses like I don't know, a bike repair shop, or a flower shop, never seem to make the grade. Maybe it's because they don't attract over amped wanna be artists with their over consumption of alcohol and lack of focus?
Here's a clue: LOUD doesn't = ART.
If there is an individual who does not deserve a special permit, this guy is it. Apparently he can't even read what his license says, and no, he is not a victim. I know he wants to pretend he is, but he isn't.
@Caesonia, eloquent and very true. Thanks for taking the time. I tend to get exasperated at times.
Land use regulations, such as minimum lot sizes, minimum parking requirements, setbacks, single-use zoning, etc., have been shown to increase the costs of housing in a region by numerous studies. It's very simple: introduce supply constraints and average price in the region goes up. This is why land owners are much more likely to advocte for these restrictions than renters, with the exception of fixed-income seniors who might be concerned about property taxes. This is well known. I'm not making it up.
What makes you think residential property loses value if successful businesses are nearby? Just think of Cville: north downtown, Belmont, frys springs are some of the most desirable neighborhoods, and they all have nearby business districts. Think the Fan in Richmond for another apt example. It's just not true that every single person prefers Walmart-style shopping and wants to spend the better part of their life staring through a windshield. Especially with growing environmental consciousness among younger people, there is much more interest in being able to walk or bike to things nearby.
These preferences create a market for walkable neighborhoods, so values go UP with places like Moto around. Time to reevaluate your assumptions.
@New Reality,
Anything that affects supply of housing has an impact on prices, but those are far from the only variables that determine value and/or price of a property because you are ignoring demand; quality schools, safe parking, oh, and noise, are very large factors in relative demand. It's not a coincidence that studies show a strong corrolation between good schools or peace/quiet in good neighborhoods vs 'bad' neighborhoods. Hey, the supply of housing in Circle, Alaska isn't very high these days, but neither is demand because the Gold Rush is over and it's 3 hours to the nearest job.
While I appreciate your point about relative interest in zoning by owners versus renters, that falls in line with what one would expect from a demographic that is not as 'invested' in a community vs those that are. A renter can pack up and leave at the end of a lease if they don't care for the community zoning, and the owner has a lot more skin in the game and a far higher level of risk associated with it. Regardless, I think it is disengenious to suggest that things like available parking or relative peacefulness doesn't matter to renters - otherwise why is it so heavily advertised by landlords/ladies?
None of which really is why individual renters can or cannot buy into a specific location. Either they have the income and savings, or they don't, it's that simple. If people couldn't pay the higher prices of a more popular location, the properties wouldn't sell. Renters, should they actually want to be homeowners, will either have to choose a smaller property in a more desirable area, or take a chance in a less desirable area, and make it more desirable via sweat equity; the latter is exactly what went on over the last 15/18 years in Belmont and Woolen Mills - people invested their lives into those neighborhoods, and you are darn tootin' they will not take kindly to any disrespectful rule breaking business owner that threatens their hard work.
"What makes you think residential property loses value if successful businesses are nearby?"
But I never said any such thing. What I said is that a particularly disruptive and low wage paying business model with high spill-over costs that is destructive to residential property values is molly coddled while more residential friendly often better paying business models are neglected. In fact, I think that particular business model is given way too much molly coddling regardless of the area, but we'll keep it limited to residential areas. Like it or not, residential property values decline the closer they are to bars and loud late night crowds, fights, and over amplified noise. Even in large cities - why do you think the penthouse condo costs a whole lot more than the ground floor one? Successful retailers and grocers that close at 7PM have an entirely different impact on the environment than a bar blaring music at 2AM, and you are lying to yourself if you think prospective buyers - including current renters - don't ask those questions and prefer the retailer/grocer by a large majority. It's for similar reasons that property values near paper factories are lower - are there any left in the US? - than they would be near an IT compound.
"Especially with growing environmental consciousness among younger people, there is much more interest in being able to walk or bike to things nearby."
Now I am glad you brought this whole walkability thing up, because it was why when I bought my first house, I did buy it in Belmont, even when friends questioned both my wisdom and safety. Ah, those were the days; easy bike to UVA, they had just started the free trolly, I could get my furniture redone, my appliances repaired, my car repaired, and do a lot of grocery and necessity shopping, all within 20 minutes walking. Boy life was convenient and I was a few blocks from the DT Mall and lots of restaurants if I wanted to tipple two instead of one drink, lawyers and financial people.
You can't really do that anymore. Why? Well, see, lots of jokers like you who love to rationalize away the facts for their late night party/noise fix, thought we needed a monoculture of those molly coddled business models lined up in a row, and chased out all the variety of businesses, leaving a void in other services. Now people living in Belmont have to drive out to Pantops or back to places like Wal-Mart. And the thing is, because there is too much competition and a monoculture, to stay in business, lots of commuters from other parts of the city or outlying counties have to come in and it defeats your desire for walkability. It also destroys long term economic viability. Diversity in nature survives, monoculture does not.
Woolen Mills is plenty close enough to other restaurants. It could use a lot of other things to make it more friendly, but loud bars with over- amped noise at 2 AM and drunks it does not.
All of which has little to do with bending the rules for a business owner who consciously chooses to operate in violation of his permit and then cries victim when he is caught. No bad business owner should be rewarded.
"Time to reevaluate your assumptions."
I don't think so. See I don't suffer the mistake of comparing the Fan In Richmond to anything that currently exists in Charlottesville, or, pretty much any older developed neighborhood in Richmond, of which there are many to choose. Richmond has a real arts/music/theatre culture that doesn't entirely revolve around over amped music and high alcohol consumption, and the majority of its citizens these days hold real jobs that actually pay the bills, instead of parental/inherited subsidy. Richmond also has plenty of great food joints without the associated snobbery from it's wait staff. That's probably why I am buying property there.
Maybe you should too.After all, property values are lower and you seem to think it has more of what you actually desire.....
Good tip on buying property in Richmond. If I ever save up enough to begin investing in real estate, I'll keep that in mind. I have a suggestion for you as well, assuming you'd like to maxmize privacy and peacefulness. You might be interested in a foreclosure or two in Lousa County. There's no molly coddled businesses for miles around. No renters, so everyone cares about their community. Loud music, no way. You get more square footage for your money, and would have plenty to spare for an SUV or two to get around. Property taxes are lower too. Why stick aound in this crowded, noisy, and dysfunctional city when you could be livin' the American dream? I promise that you'll find an eager buyer for your home in the Belmont.
News flash Mr New Reality, property values do not go up near road-houses/honky-tonks, property values go down.
Clem, that's not true. Except in certain circumstances, such as a particular seedy or very large scale establishment or a highly car-dependent area, the proximity of entertainment and retail is correlated with higher property values. And there is an indication that the correlation is growing stronger.
http://www.reconnectingamerica.org/resource-center/browse-research/2009/...
This report is better:
"Homes located in more walkable neighborhoods—those with a mix of common daily shopping and social destinations within a short distance—command a price premium over otherwise similar homes in less walkable areas. Houses with the above- average levels of walkability command a premium of about $4,000 to $34,000 over houses with just average levels of walkability in the typical metropolitan areas studied."
http://blog.walkscore.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/WalkingTheWalk_CEOs...
New reality, how many blocks away from meade do you live? I'm guessing that it's far enough away that you haven't been bothered by the noise, parking and yelling from Moto and Lunchbox. You probably live in a quieter area of the neighborhood, but don't want some of your neighbors to share in that, huh? When I bought my house, I bought it in a quiet family neighborhood. I didn't choose to buy a home in the "new, expanding, blossoming district" the Moto owner is trying to create. Hey, where was the step where he talked to the neighbors and asked them if they wanted a nightclub district? The guy has been totally disingenuous from the day he opened, and the only people who believe him live far enough away to not be bothered. Ceasonia's right that he's no victim and doesn't deserve to have his zoning changed.
There are many other uses for that building that would be better uses near homes. For instance, what if he used the space for the purpose he told the city we was using it for, a bar and restaurant? I'm pro business, but some businesses aren't compatible with quiet family neighborhoods.
I live close enough to have heard Lunchbox loud and clear. An outdoor venue is clearly incompatable with the area, and I would not support an SUP for them if they sought one. I believe Moto is different because it is insulated, the orientation of the space points sound away from the neighborhood, and alcohol cannot be served past 12:00. If it becomes a problem, we just report a noise violation. Maybe someone in the neighborhood should invest in a $25 noise meter to hold them accountable. An outright ban on live music is unnecessary.
Not to be pedantic, but there is a difference between getting an SUP and a rezoning. The public process for this started last year when the city decided that live music would be ok in industrial zones like this one, as long as the owner is granted an SUP. After screwing up and getting rightfully dinged for it, he is now applying for the SUP and neighbors/patrons will have a chance to voice their opinions at the planning commission meeting in Sept. The process isn't broken in this case.
@New Reality, "We used data from the National Council of Real Estate Investment Fiduciaries (NCREIF) and Walk Score to examine the effects of walkability on the market value and annual investment returns of nearly 11,000 office, apartment, retail and industrial properties over the past decade in the USA." Your link does not indicate that data from a family neighborhood containing night clubs, sandwich shops with bars, nip joints and other money-laundering-capable businesses was actually included in this study. The study indicates that it looked at high-density (apartment0, commercial and mixed use areas (office, retail and industrial). Maybe the proposed location has to much competition for Moto to work (Diminos, Tubby's, Jak 'n Jil, Rieverside, none of who have night clubs) and no night club is going to bring in enough revenue every night to make it work. Is it having gourmet sandwiches?
The second study you mention has to do with neighborhoods with "those with a mix of common daily shopping and social destinations within a short distance" which does not apply here either unless you are projecting that with the nightclub a new shopping district will arise.
"What makes you think residential property loses value if successful businesses are nearby? Just think of Cville: north downtown, Belmont, frys springs are some of the most desirable neighborhoods, and they all have nearby business districts." North Downtown does not have night clubs that is not in the business district (one in the 600 block of E. Market). South Belmont has no nightclubs. North Belmont has Downtown Belmont with night clubs (mostly defunct) has been the subject of nearby residential uproar. Talk to a real estate agent to see how difficult is is to sell a house near there to a family. Fry's Spring has a commercial district with a night club. However very few families are disturbed by the musice because they are not within ear shot. Housing near there is predominantly rented to students. This does not apply to Moto's circumstance either.
The new reality is there are some people now on Council that has some sense.
Jim needs to bring the police report from the biker beating to the SUP hearing. Matteus can then explain why that type of incident won't occur again during his concerts.
@cville Eye
The fun part of new Reality's evidence is it supports my premise that diversity - which used to exist in Belmont - is what people want, versus teh monoculture that was allowed to develop in conflict with the zoning. Had the zoning been followed, regarding parking, and use types, we might have 2, at most 3 food places, and the rest would still be devoted to other business types.
Any poor sucker thinking of opening a business in Ch'ville should read this thread. And then rapidly back away and head for __________________[fill in the name of any place else].
@New Reality
I am beginning to wonder if you are some type of a Republican or something. Your continued use of strawman arguments, and your desire to turn vague terms into meaning whatever small item you want them to mean is very telling. It's like family values is supposed to really mean 'no gay marriage', suddenly walkability is supposed to mean people like to live within walking distance of loud late night bars pumping deafening sound out at 2AM. Sorry, but that's not what walkability means, and your references don't even suggest that it does. However, if you take a look at what happens with walkability and property values when casinos are involved:
"Applying the model to casinos in Atlantic City shows that the frequency of violent crimes, burglaries, and robberies diminish with distance and appear to have a depressing effect on property values especially in localities accessible to the central city." http://jrc.sagepub.com/content/28/3/288
Now, the only difference between a nightclub and a casino is the gambling, assuming that no poker games are being played. It attracts a certain element that is more primed to violence and crime. The biker beating was a violent crime and responsible citizens don't like to raise their children next to violent crime if they can help it. Yes, it lowers property values.
You are just going to have to have a Come to Jesus moment and accept that not all business models are created equal and belong near residential neighborhoods. Spudnuts, Beck-Cohen, and Inova are three businesses that pay taxes, are either family run, or pay good wages, yet never seem to awaken people at 2AM or require the police to be called to break up fights because of bad patrons. They are contributors, not resource drains. They get along with the neighborhood. They promote walkability. These are the types of businesses the City of Charlottesville and Albemarle need to start talking about and promoting instead of wasting time accommodating one more loud 'scene' club that turns everything upside down before going out of business.
Do yourself a favour and stop making poor analogies and distorting data. I mean, using the Fan in Richmond as a wonderful example after complaining about too much regulation? Do you realize how foolish that makes you sound? All you do is demonstrate how right we are, and how unwilling you are to deal with what the underlying issues are - a small group of rude, noisy, obnoxious, destructive people tearing up a working neighborhood at 2AM and the jerk who is trying to make money off of it by breaking the rules. it has nothing to do with music.
I guess I consider walkability as having things around to walk to, in my simple-minded way (there's also the infrastructure element like good sidewalks, but that's different). That's basically how walkscore is configured as well, which is the data used by the studies. They give points to certain businesses within a quarter-mile walk, including bars. So, yes. Moto will technically increase the Walkscore of Woolen Mills, and according to the second study this is correlated with higher property values. Please point out how I am distorting anything. It's great that businesses pay fair wages, are family-owned and so-forth, but it gets way to complicated to take all of these issues on at once. (by the way, how do you know they pay unfair wages? I know it is family owned by a neighborhood resident).
Please explain how adding Moto to the corner of Meade and Market creates a monoculture? I honestly have no idea what you mean by that.
Casinos are terrible. They wreck havoc on lives wherever they are placed. Completely different issue.
@ new reality
I read through the standards of issuance for a special use permit, I didn't see anything about a "walkability score". But there seem to be a number of points in the standards that would argue against locating a juke-joint saloon in a residential neighborhood.
Sec. 34-157. General standards for issuance.
(a) In considering an application for a special use permit, the city council shall consider the following factors:
(1) Whether the proposed use or development will be harmonious with existing patterns of use and development within the neighborhood;
(2) Whether the proposed use or development and associated public facilities will substantially conform to the city's comprehensive plan;
(3) Whether proposed use or development of any buildings or structures will comply with all applicable building code regulations;
(4) Whether the proposed use or development will have any potentially adverse impacts on the surrounding neighborhood, or the community in general; and if so, whether there are any reasonable conditions of approval that would satisfactorily mitigate such impacts. Potential adverse impacts to be considered include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following:
a. Traffic or parking congestion;
b. Noise, lights, dust, odor, fumes, vibration, and other factors which adversely affect the natural environment;
c. Displacement of existing residents or businesses;
d. Discouragement of economic development activities that may provide desirable employment or enlarge the tax base;
e. Undue density of population or intensity of use in relation to the community facilities existing or available;
f. Reduction in the availability of affordable housing in the neighborhood;
g. Impact on school population and facilities;
h. Destruction of or encroachment upon conservation or historic districts;
i. Conformity with federal, state and local laws, as demonstrated and certified by the applicant; and,
j. Massing and scale of project.
(5) Whether the proposed use or development will be in harmony with the purposes of the specific zoning district in which it will be placed;
(6) Whether the proposed use or development will meet applicable general and specific standards set forth within the zoning ordinance, subdivision regulations, or other city ordinances or regulations; and
(7) When the property that is the subject of the application for a special use permit is within a design control district, city council shall refer the application to the BAR or ERB, as may be applicable, for recommendations as to whether the proposed use will have an adverse impact on the district, and for recommendations as to reasonable conditions which, if imposed, that would mitigate any such impacts. The BAR or ERB, as applicable, shall return a written report of its recommendations to the city council.
(b) Any resolution adopted by city council to grant a special use permit shall set forth any reasonable conditions which apply to the approval.
(9-15-03(3); 11-21-05; 2-21-06)
It is a gross exaggeration to call a restaurant that stops serving alcohol at midnight on Friday and Saturday a nightclub!!! Neighbors who complain about rowdy drunks in the neighborhood at 3 or 4am have no business attributing their rowdiness to the establishment. There have been drunks in the area as long as there have been vacant mills, woods, and train tracks. I applaud this guy for sticking his neck out and turning what was once an illegal venue (Dust) into a reputable establishment with gracious employees and doormen. They don’t serve shooters intended to get people trashed like bars on the corner do. They serve classic cocktails and quality beer. I encourage you lazy venomous commenters to visit the establishment and note its potential rather than scheming over its demise. The Moto boast an espresso maker. The food is delicious and well-prepared--the tempeh Reuben is phenomenal as are the scallops. It will soon be open for lunch. I look forward to walking down the street again to see some quality live music and support a substantive slice of small town hospitality in a town otherwise dominated by the vulgar Capshaw empire.
Forgive me if I don't get it, but the poster above me says this place turned an illegal venue into a reputable establishment. Doesn't the story say completely the opposite? I mean tis place was illegal which was the reason it got shut down. I can't imagine why anyone would want to encourage an illegal nightclub near people's homes. It looks to me like the city official agreed and did the right thing to shut it down. If its an illegal business aren't the people who would run an illegal business likely to be doing other illegal things too? How could you ever trust somone like that? Their still open and can have a leagle business if they just follow the rules for a change. Maybe in a few years if they prove they can be trusted and are OK for the neighbors with what they had offered they can get more privileges, but to give them all right now sends a bad message to good people who do work hard and follow the rules.
At least the own knows he will have two customers in the evening, New Reality and supportive resident or are they already employees or family members?
Cville Eye, geez the ad hominems just keep coming. First, I'm accused of being a renter, because, you know, renters just aren't invested enough to take seriously. By the way, this was the same line of argumentation used in pre-jacksonian U.S. for allowing only landholders to vote, and its the line of reasoning recently revived by some Tea Party activists to deny renters the right to vote. I'm not a renter, but I fully stand by their right to take part in this conversation.
Then, you accused me of joining the occupy movement and being drunk. That one was too odd to merit a response.
Then, Caesonia went so far as to call me a "Republican."
Now you think I must have a financial interest in Moto as an employee or family member. I don't, I'm neither. I've only been there once, but I enjoyed my dinner. That gives me some insight into the particularities of this issue that you do not have. Yet you make plenty of assumptions.
When this issue passed around our neighborhood listserv, the response was roughly 50/50 in support or against. However, typically its the strident antis that get worked up enough to follow the issue through. You see some of that here (with the exception of "nearby neighbor") with the name-calling, exaggerations, and oddball logic.
If you insist on my ulterior motives, I'm sticking with this issue because I care about smart growth, other transportation options than driving, and urban diversity. Yeah, Moto will make the neighborhood a little nicer, but that's not worth arguing over. I'm tired of the reflexive opposition to anything that adds to an existing place, thereby forcing all new growth out to the periphery as sprawl. I remember when the new Meade Park pool was supposed to trigger the descent of Armageddon upon us. The antis lost that one, but the neighborhood won. I've walked to that pool dozens of times and could not imagine it not there.
The patrons of the Meade Park pool almost all drive to get there which makes for a very dangerous situation for anyone driving down Meade Avenue on a Summer day. Meade is a busy connector street which in that area is choked with cars on both sides with children crossing the street between them often without looking first. That happens all day long It's only a matter of time until someone gets run over there.
The situation is even worse on City Market days with vendors pulling in and out in front of the through traffic and a steady stream of car driving market customers doing the same. If that's an example of making Charlottesville "walkable" then we need to stop while we're still ahead.
There was an existing pool in that park and there were also very popular ball fields. The change in the park considerably reduced its uses because half of its former area is no longer available. The hilly rear end where the pool used to be is not usable for much of anything now. The fields where my kids used to play Little League ball are gone. Despite there being less to do there, the parking situation is noticeably worse.
The Black Market Saloon seems to me to have had much of the same impact. It may be walkable for some, but it's pretty obvious that the owner wants to run a business that will only be successful if most of its patrons drive to get there. There must not be adequate parking to handle the crowds because when I've driven through the area at night, I've seen cars parked all along Meade and many on Market St. too. No wonder people nearby complain!
Drivers using Meade at night encounter a situation similar to what the park creates during the day, with the difference being that alcohol is involved. That seems to have affected the judgement of Moto Saloon patrons who I've seen dressed in black for their rock and roll night out ignore the crosswalk light and blindly walk in front of my car as I've driven down Meade. Alcohol also affects the drive home for the majority who have driven to be there and anyone else they encounter on their way home, which might be their fellow rockers on foot ignoring traffic signals, but is just as likely to be a neighbor trying to enjoy his or her "walkable" neighborhood.
Again, if that's what making Charlottesville "walkable" involves, I hope it stops before anyone decides to "improve" my quiet little part of the city like that. Something like a biker bar isn't likely to show up next to me, but if someone can get away with ignoring zoning like this business owner has tried to do, who knows for sure what might move in next to any of us.
I share your concerns about traffic, but we probably differ on solutions pretty significantly. The 20th century way of dealing with the real safety, congestion, and parking issues you've identified was to move destinations away from each other. Maybe the Farmers Market goes to Pantops, and the pool somewhere along US 29 (although one could argue these places are a mess right now as well and they should go further out). There would be sufficient amounts of parking required and divided highways to keep obstacles away from drivers. We have plenty of places like this in our region for people to choose to live in, but I'd like to think some parts of our region can approach the problem differently and offer sustainable - sorry for the loaded word :) - choices.
Although, as you've noted, many people do still choose to drive even in the city for whatever reason, the easier we make it to not drive the more people will change habits. Allowing destinations to be in closer proximity to each other is one way to provide alternatives, and over time I hope that more and more people will take advantage of these opportunities. Some already are but transitions do not happen overnight.
One more thing, transportation chaos is not necessarily less safe than order. This seems counterintuitive, but it has been demonstrated numerous times. It turns out that drivers and pedestrians are good at adjusting their behavior to conditions. If you are uneasy about your surroundings, you tend to slow down and be more attentive.The Dutch call it a woonerf. However, it is very important that the street offer design cues (such as the bulb-out in front of the pool) to the users, so they know to expect some chaos.
I agree that alcohol is a problem, but wouldn't we rather put bars in places where it is at least possible not to drive than only in places were driving is a necessity? People are going to drink regardless. Couple that with strong enforcement and the problem can be mitigated.
"If you insist on my ulterior motives, I'm sticking with this issue because I care about smart growth, other transportation options than driving, and urban diversity."
But you aren really sticking with those issues New Reality, or any of these less convenient side effects of this so called 'smart growth' which isn growth at all, and what you love to preach on about walkability. I have read this thread from top to bottom, and many posters have rationally and intelligently asnwered you and they have tried to get you to address the increased noise, violent crime, and parking problems, which you just blithely ignore, or try and bring in references that are not that related. Itś irritating, and demonstrates why those who just might not agree with you do eventually get rather vociferous. Posters also stop taking you seriously and cracking jokes or wondering what you are really up to, because a problem solving conversation isn't it.
First of all, you need to get over the fantasy that any growth is going on in WM. There is not smart growth, stupid growth, or even growth. There were businesses here 50 years ago, and now there are some new ones with different cultures that have some adverse side effects with associated with them. Meade Park didn come into the existance the day the Aquatic pool was built. The people who are in the immediate area have every right to be concerend about how their lives, and their property are going to be negatively affected.
I don't care if your list-serv comes out 50/50, or 70/30 in favor. You don have the right to turn the lives of the surrounding people upside down for your convenience or just because you believe in some concept. The lives of the people surrounding Bel Rio were virtually destroyed. Their property was trashed, there were fights, broken glass was everywhere, it was dangerous for children. They still have a fight ever finding parking when they do have to drive somewhere, because the City ignored teh zoning which said limited parking requirements, and there is very limited parking on the streets. So the wonderful walking world of Charlottesville drives right on over and parks all day long and than hald the night too. Oh, it was all great. It was nice and walkable. Just don't try and live there. There was a chiropractor who was next to it and finally his deaf old mother couldn take it either and he was forced to sell and move his business, if I recall correctly. I think it took 2 years for the property to sell in a good market. Now it's on the market again. It's just sitting.
Now, because of Moto and Lunchbox, itś happening again. The lessons of bel Rio weren't learned and loud late night groups were booked. We have fights. Broken glass.Noise. Drunks. Where there weren very many before, now there is a cluster.
The thing about change, is that you have to have a plan to manage that change, and mitigate the adverse effects. There hasn't been one and there still isn, and it's obvious you don have one either. When beer bottles are thrown at houses are going to the effected neighbors and helping them clean up? How about fixing their broken wall after drunk patrons keep backing into it? Are you volunteering? If it gets too noisy can they call you to go over and and ask Matteus to turn it down? Are you going to spend the money to repair their broken windows?
What is YOUR plan to help all those impacted mitigate damages and come through the change?
My bet is you aren't doing squat. you are using the same weak arguments used to defend Bel Rio, and adding the walkaibility clause as if that explains everything. My bet is some of these folks are right, you aren close enough to really feel the impact - yet. I could be wrong, but everything you post here tells me I am right.
Someone posted that with Matteus, itś a question of character. I think they are absolutely correct. His motive suggest he has been dishonest in his motives. I think the same is true for you too, and thatś why some posters have started teasing you a bit. After all, being a Republican isn really a bad word, is it?
Start showing us some moral character to prove you have something to offer in the organization you participate. Don just say something is good, do something to make it good for those who are only seeing the bad.
Now
Two obvious corrections -
His motive suggest he has been dishonest in his motives.
Should be His actions suggest he has been dishonest in his motives.
And the final now should be dropped.
Lots of other typos. Oh well. I had to take several breaks to write this.
I have lived in the Woolen Mills area for over 3 years and love it for its history, diversified residents and closeness to the downtown area. My house is close to the Moto Saloon, and as such, I do hear the music, especially the base. Mr. Frankovick states that he wants to create a "neighborhood pub". However, his blurb in the latest "Bites and sights" reads: You'll find danger, beer and romance at this spot, a biker-themed bar with live music, a limited menu, and a cool, industrial vibe.: Doesn't sound much like a neighbor pub to me.
Mr. Frankovich has consistently shown that he believes he is above the rules. A good businessman finds out what those rules are, works with the zoning commission or whatever agency involved, and also works closely with the local Neighborhood association; none of which Mr. Frankovich has done. He has, in fact, not acted in good faith, even though he insists he cares about the local community. He should have done his homework before he opened his bar. I agree with the writer who wrote "a bar is not art" something Mr. Frankovich intimated in an article. I would add, neither does a bar bring "culture" to an area. Is he for real?
I note that his hours are to be from 5pm -1am. Beer Run has hours from 11am-10pm;much more neighborhood friendly. It is almost impossible for a bar to co-exist with a quiet historical community. There are many factors that intrude upon a settled residential community such as parking, more police activity than usual due to altercations resulting from alcohol related behavoir, and more loud noises, not just from the music, but from additional traffic late at night, and from outside people coming in, who, granted, just want a good time, but who will leave the neighborhood, not having any real investment in the community as the residents do. There are actually working types who live in this area, and have to get some sleep to go to work to pay their taxes and mortgages. A biker themed bar with loud music definitely does not have a place in this area.
Also, JABA is building a 27 unit complex for Seniors just down the road, and a biker type bar doesn't seem like the neighborly thing to do for this great neighborhood. Hey, I'm all for new businesses coming in that enhance the neighborhood like a bakery, a coffeeshop, a Mexican restaurant, a mattress retailer, a doughnut take -out; anything but a biker themed bar that plays loud music until 1am, and is not in compliance with the law.
Did some more thinking New Reality. you do like to skirt the issues don you?
"It's great that businesses pay fair wages, are family-owned and so-forth, but it gets way to complicated to take all of these issues on at once."
I had to go back through your references and the others another poster made, to undestand this, but here is the gist of the point that is being made:
The benefits of walkability and the reasons why urban centers become more popular is in part, due to the above statement about pay, as well as fit for zoning. have close access to a good paying job as well as a variety of daily goods and serviecs are what itś about. I think the poster is saying that all the time spent and obession developing one restaurant and one night club after another - most of which fail after causing trouble - versus businesses that pay good wages with benefits, is a waste if resources. Beer Run, Belmont Pizza, a Chinese food place, and a Mexiacn restaurant are all within easy walking distance of WM. A few more blocks and you have many many more choices. There are however, no convenince stores, the one produce shop, or a place of necessities. I think there is a little Latino grocery in that area and Latino bakery.
Your distortions come from claiming that a DT mixed use commercial space with variety shopping equals being able to walk to a night club, yet a casino is a totally different animal. A casino is much closer to a late night live music bar than a mixed commerical district. Live music. Alcohol. Food. Sometimes drugs. Thatś what they both have. Legally adding the gambling part is only a small step. I take my trips to Vegas and Atlantic City, and I know what I am in and looking at; a bar with live music that you can play craps or 21 in.
A well regulated cat house would be less trouble to the neighbors.
Let's run with the Belmont example. Old Timer, you've presented lots of anecdotes about how bad the commercial district has been for the neighborhood: fighting for parking, inability to sell homes, incessant noise, violence. These are some of the same fears we are hearing would result from Moto being allowed to host live music.
Now let's look at the data. Check out the Charlottesville GIS site and look at assessed property values. You will see a clear pattern jump right off the page. Homes within a 1/4 mile (easy walking distance) of the district, including homes directly adjacent to the commercial properties, are worth considerably more than homes outside of this radius. If it is as bad there as you say it is, why are so many people willing to pay so much to live there?
Thank you to the posters who are talking about reality instead of fantasy. New reality, its clear that you don't live close enough to Moto to have any idea what's going on. You are talking about theories and wishes and dreams instead of what really is. You don't care about your neighbors, only yourself. We are nothing to you. You are hoping that this guy might be honest but deep inside you know that you wouldn't let him put a club next to your house, especially if you have sleeping kids like we do.
You and the others in the neighborhood who think this is such a great idea don't know what its been like for us. Its all just a theory or dream to you because you don't have to live with the consequence. Fine. Stay on your quiet side of the neighborhood. Better yet, see if your neighbors over there want a nightclub next to them and drunk customers waking them up at night. Or maybe you could have big loud parties every Friday and Saturday. I bet they would tell you a thing or two about that, sir. Enjoy your own peace and quiet and stop trying to ruin mine.
New Reality,
"Homes within a 1/4 mile (easy walking distance) of the district, including homes directly adjacent to the commercial properties, are worth considerably more than homes outside of this radius."
Homes within a 1/4 mile of the little commerical district are also right across the bridge from the DT Mall, and other goods and services. They are also of more gracious build, went through a tremendous amount of renovation in 90ś and early ots , and part of a tight little peaceful community before your so called smart growth ever showed up. It had a nice mixture of shops and was a true village commerical area. Which is exactly what another poster told you and why they bought their first property there.
Most of the current food joints came after prices had peaked in that area, not because someone got the idea to put a nightclub and bar in the area. Even Tapas, one of the good places that did add to variety and walkability, didn't open until 2003. Prices peaked before Tavola, Bel Rio, The Local, and whatever that place is that never opened up.
Thanks to ostrages like you, however, that wonderful price point was threatened by encouraging lots of neighborhood party crowds. Sales slowed down when the whole Bel Rio debacle broke loose. I know one person who was asked exactly what type of business theyw ere next to when their house was on the market. When it was understood it wasn't a bunch of bars it was like...Oh. OK. The minute his place was closed and the new sound ordinance went through, sales picked up again. There is no more live music to speak of in Belmont, and from what I have seen when I do pass through is an entirely different crowd. A much more prosperous and polite clientel. Quiet by 10PM. The GIS would be refelctive of that, not what it was like 2 years ago.
Once again you keep missing the point that the problem is proximity to negative factors like staggering drunks, crime and loud music, not the proximity to respectable business centers.
I always found it laughable to listen to the owner of The Local and what neighbors should tolerate when his own family was a couple of blocks away. Maybe if he raised them in an upstairs apartment I would feel better about it, but he doesn't. Neither do you, and I know you don live next ot it either.
By the way, you haven said how you intend to help those affected by the increased noise and parking problems and violence and vandelism.
What is your plan to mitigate these problems? Or are you still lying to everyone that it doesn exist?