Bosom-gate: Jones in doghouse for UVA remarks

Last summer, the tanned and outspoken hedge fund billionaire and UVA alum Paul Tudor Jones caused a stir by penning an op/ed supporting UVA Rector Helen Dragas' attempt to oust UVA President Teresa Sullivan, a failed coup that knowledgeable sources say he may have even helped orchestrate. In April, Jones was at it again, making remarks at a UVA symposium that appear to have offended women everywhere.

Indeed, after the Washington Post filed a Freedom of Information Act request to view a UVA video of the event, a symposium sponsored by UVA's McIntire School of Commerce titled “Investing in Markets, Society and Ourselves: Views from Investment Masters,” the media attention became so intense that Jones had to walk back his comments. What's more, the symposium was co-sponsored by the Contemplative Sciences Center, for which Jones donated $12 million to create.

"Much of my adult life has been spent fighting for equal opportunity and the idea that I would support limiting opportunity for any segment of society, particularly women, is antithetical to who I am and what I have done." said Jones, 58, in a release. " My remarks offended, and I am sorry."

Near the end of the April 26 symposium at the UVA's McIntire School of Commerce, someone in the audience asked why there wasn't much diversity on the panel, noting in particular the absence of women. Jones responded by saying that having children prevented women from succeeding in the investment world because the demands of being a mother killed the intense focus needed to be a sharp trader, specifically a global macro trader, who uses the latest technology and makes high-frequency trades.

“As soon as that baby’s lips touched that girl’s bosom, forget it,” Jones said, to chuckles from the audience and nervous shifting about from fellow panelists as he described how two women traders he knew in the late 1970s lost their edge after having children.

"I’ve just seen it happen over and over," he said.

In the video, Jones appears to have recognized his misstep pretty quickly, and tries to add some clarity to his comments. He mentions that he had said some of the same things to a group of women in the hedge fund field, but he finally seems to realize that there is no use backpedaling.

“I’ve probably said too much and gotten myself in trouble,” Jones said.

Indeed, as UVA professor of marketing David Mick, one of the panelists at the symposium, told the Hook on May 30, "I personally felt that Mr. Jones' perspective and his specific words were inappropriate." However, he added, "Jones has subsequently apologized, in a sincere manner I believe."

And Mick wasn't the only UVA professor disturbed by Jones comments. The day before, 80 UVA professors signed a letter, first obtained by the Post, asking UVA to officially respond, saying they found Jones' comments "regarding the deleterious effect of children on working mothers to be false and injurious." UVA provost John Simon, another major player in the events of last summer, responded in much the same way that Mick did, saying Jones' comments were "of his own volition; he was not speaking on behalf of UVA, and he has since issued a public apology.”

That apparently isn't enough for some UVA professors. As the Post reported, a professor who spoke on the condition of anonymity, afraid for their career, accused UVA officials of being "afraid to speak out" because they didn't want to upset a big donor. Denise Walsh, an associate professor in the Woodrow Wilson Department of Politics and Women, Gender & Sexuality, told the Post that the university is missing its chance to "make a public statement underscoring its commitment to women’s advancement in all career fields."

Ironically, McIntire Dean Carl P. Zeithaml, who also played a part in the events of last summer by accepting and then rejecting the post of interim UVA president during the crisis, asked the audience not to record the event, as he wanted to encourage the speakers to be candid. Incidentally, moderating the event was Jeffery Walker, a founder of J.P. Morgan Partners, and the inspiration for Rector Dragas' focus on online education during last year's failed coup.

“No quotes with attribution should leave the room,” Zeithaml said. “We must prohibit any discussion or description of the event in print or video, through electronic media or through Internet-based technologies including websites, blogs or social media, such as Twitter or Facebook.”

Of course, you'd think that anyone involved in the events of last summer would realize that actively trying to keep information from leaking out is practically like asking for it to be leaked.
Jones' remarks prompted scathing comments from women business leaders, including an op-ed from political writer Susan Milligan in U.S. News & World Report titled, "Wall Street’s Misogyny on Display."

"There's no excuse for Jones' comments, which he initially defended as 'off the cuff,'" writes Milligan. "All that phrase means is that he was saying exactly what he was thinking without first editing it for public relations purposes. His apology was weak, sounded insincere and is likely to dog him for some time. He should be careful about that— it might make it hard for him to focus."

Milligan sets aside Jones' "antiquated and slightly creepy description of motherhood" and points out that fathers are just as strongly affected by the birth of a child and the burdens that come with sleepless nights, constant feedings, and exhausted wives. She also accuses him of gender-bias.

"What if a woman were to say men shouldn't be traders because they are too easily distracted by the sight of female bodies in the office and therefore can't 'focus'?" asks Milligan.

Finally, she says that Jones and other male traders might want to take a hard look in the mirror, as they presided over the 2008 stock-market meltdown.

"If men hold the vast majority of the high-level jobs in trading, and are more able to focus than women, then how did such a disaster occur?" she writes. "What's their excuse?"

In the video, it's pretty clear that Jones was trying to say that life events like divorce, death, and childbirth can derail a career in the fast-paced world of global macro-trading, but his flippant use of the word "bosom" and description of childbirth as a "killer" of focus may have revealed a general bias in a financial world mostly dominated by men.

As famous female macro trader Renée Haugerud, 58, mentioned in the New York Post, there have been many studies over the years showing that women outperform men at trading, but women are not given access to big money because of perceptions like those of Jones.

One such study by behavioral economists Terrence Odean and Brad Barber, aptly titled "Boys Will Be Boys: Gender, Overconfidence, and Common Stock Investment," finds that women are actually better traders than men. Overconfidence in men, the study determined, led to counterproductivity over time, as men tended to trade more often than women.

“It’s disappointing,” ex-hedge fund manager Pamela Lawrence told the New York Post, “There are many smart, hard-working female investment professionals who are just not given the opportunity. What’s wrong with the whole process?”

Updated June 3, 2013, 11:00am


Paul Tudor Jones' April 26 remarks at the University of Virginia

Read more on: paul tudor jones

135 comments if we needed further proof of this man's insensitivity and egotism which he demonstrated during last summer's UVA debacle.

McNair did you actually listen to Jones' words, or are you relying on Milligan's op-ed piece for your fact-gathering. He commented on his observations within a very small niche--global MACRO trading. Not brokering, not management, not the "investment world." The media depiction of his comments give me an understanding why Zeithaml wanted to give guests some protection, if this is the careless reporting he expected.

@Accuracy matters- well said. Leave it to these folks to misinterpret a thoughtful comment.

What a society we live in where someone dares tell a truth widely known and gets excoriated for doing so. I suppose when responding to the question, he should have uttered mealy mouthed falsehoods instead?

Accuracy matters,

I have watched the video, as have countless others, thanks only to the Freedom of Information Act, which is the only reason we have an "accurate" accounting of what happened last summer at UVA. I admire your loyalty to the people you serve, but the truth always comes out in the end. I would have thought you might have learned that. Micro should have been macro in this section below. A proof-reading mistake. Thanks for pointing it out. If there are any other inaccuracies, I hope you'll feel free to point them out --- sincerely, McNair

"In the video, it's pretty clear that Jones was trying to say that life events like divorce, death, and childbirth can derail a career in the fast-paced world of macro-trading, but his flippant use of the word "bosom" and description of childbirth as a "killer" of focus may have revealed a general bias in a financial world mostly dominated by men."

There's more than a typo here: "Basically, Jones responded by saying that having children prevented women from succeeding in the investment world because the demands of being a mother killed the intense focus needed to be a sharp trader, specifically a micro trader, who uses the latest technology and makes high-frequency trades." Your paraphrasing alters his words and context sufficiently to mislead readers. He is not commenting on the "investment world." He did not say women who have children cannot be successful, he said that he's seen them unable to retain the intense focus for macro trading they had before motherhood. There are legitimate instances of discrimination; let's preserve our resources to identify and fight those, not the subjective observations of someone presumably invited to share same. Good luck with that one-way free speech thing.

OMG- Here we have managers splitting hairs about repugnant remarks, and attempting to smooth out an insult to women, and essentially to motherhood. I guess it takes a micro trader to parse out this strategy and try to make it fly with rational and balanced audiences. The fact remains JTJ is, and will likely remain, blind to his own prejudices, I guess vast wealth, allows some distance from the real working world. I wonder how his female staff and employees feel about working for this dunder-mifflin prototype?? OH, maybe UVA can try to clean this up, but the stigma remains, and outside Charlottesville, people are outraged or tittering about the chauvinist public university latest exploration of the 1950's...

On Wednesday, some 82 faculty of the school sent a letter to John Simon, its executive vice president and provost, demanding that the administration “promptly” respond to Jones’ remarks, The Post has learned.
In their letter to Simon, a copy of which was obtained by The Post, the staffers also condemned Jones’ remarks, which he made at a symposium in April, as “false and injurious.”

Jones is a jerk. Pure and simple.

Article by Jenna Johnson of the Washington Post includes the faculty letter

UVa must be wondering if the Contemplative Science Center gift from the Jones is worth the headaches.

From Post article:

"symposium hosted by the U-Va. McIntire School of Commerce and the Contemplative Sciences Center, which was started last year with a $12 million gift from Jones."

Dave, do you know the title of the Symposium, and why would the Contemplative Science Center sponsor a panel of ( as the questioner from the audience said ) five -" rich, white middle-aged men " ?

Are we talking about the gender that takes 10x as long to hit the bathroom, and needs to do so in groups? The gender that takes 4x as long to get dressed?

Who sez there is a difference?

Anyone who says there is no difference in the gender has never been married for any length of time.

jimi, perhaps you would think differently if you read this:

Rana Foroohar is TIME's assistant managing editor in charge of economics and business.

Sorry, Paul Tudor Jones: It's Male - Not
Female - Traders We Should Be Worried About

woah, woah, woah!!!

What is indisputable is that the man has a lot of money. Therefore: A) he knows what he's talking about regarding EVERYTHING. and B) he is a good person. By that I mean, he is worthwhile human being. if he wasn't, he wouldn't have money, right? I mean, we all know that rich people are just BETTER than poor people. We all just KNOW this.

Some may say, "Hey, Adolph Hitler, Genghis Kahn, Napoleon Bonaparte, Joseph Stalin, and Richard Nixon had a lot of money... " and I say they are the the exception that proves the rule.

BECAUSE this man was fortunate to make a ####load of cash, he is the AUTHORITY ON LIFE!! We should all thank him for showing us the light.

The provost apparently said we have to have free speech at the university, why then is the dean of the commerce school trying to suppress discussion? That's another indication that the culture of uva is rotten. What kind of people do they appoint as deans over there? Dave .... ?

Apparently any huge donor can be invited in to say what ever sexist thing they want to because of the psychosis of extreme wealth hubris. We better hope the KKK doesn't become a huge donor , who knows what they would say when given the Dais in the name of free expression of ideas. The faculty want a stronger response about this from the administration. How about they start with kicking out the dean who arranged and promoted this. The culture of uva needs to be changed.

So Nancy Drew, your super sleuth skillz tell you there is no difference between men and women?

It is called freedom of speech all you little PC trolls. Just because he said it does not make it set in stone, just his viewpoint. Do what one was supposed to do with people that annoyed then backin the day, ignore it- but dont try and censor it.

Funny how the liberals are the first to try and take away the liberties of those they disagree with... kind of like what the Democratic started KKK did back int the day. Just instead of white hoods now they wear USERNAMES on forums.

I am not in favor of censoring him . The point I am making is - I disagree with him and I agree with other posters that Dean Zeithaml's attempt at secrecy is what I would think would upset you.

Freedom of speech also gives us the right to denounce jones's remarks.

that was said at that event was this: “We must prohibit any discussion or description of the event in print or video, through electronic media or through Internet-based technologies including websites, blogs or social media, such as Twitter or Facebook.”

What Jones said was offensive, stupid, and insupportable, given the facts (studies showing that women are better traders than men). The worst thing is not what he said, which is patently ridiculous, juvenile and easily debunked. What is really terrible is that an academic at a major public university, Zeithaml, wants to shut down freedom of speech, debate, and the free flow of information. Let Jones say whatever stupid thing he wants to say. But let everyone know about it. Why cover up for the powerful? That's the real crime here. Zeithami should be held to account for that.

What I find most remarkable about this story is not Jones's remarks- totally predictable - given what we already know about him from his Daily Progress editorial during the attempt to oust President Sullivan, what disturbs me is the context: lack of diversity on the panel of a major public university, lack of rebuttal from other panelists, sponsorship by a department of the University called " Contemplative Sciences " and the attempt by the Commerce School Dean to hide the proceedings from the public. I am still unclear why the Post had to file a FOIA for the video.

We fuss and fume about Jones' WORDS, which he has a right to say whether you agree with him or not. But are we as outraged about Dumler's ACTIONS (guilty of sexual battery)that are abusive to women? Which is the greater evil? Put it in perspective and channel your energies accordingly.

Jones probably arranged for someone to bring up diversity so he could then make a comment that gets everyone fighting with each other, the ol' divide and conquer tactic. Talk of diversity creates division and puts a focus on our "differences" and that's why the establishment is pushing it so hard. As for Dumbler, sexual battery, and the greater evil, what about the TSA sexually battering air travellers every single day as a matter of policy. It's not that the Dumbler issue is a greater evil than the TSA battering. If anything it demonstrates how people get active and organized against something bad when they feel they have the power to change it but they muddle through it when they don't. Not that there aren't plenty of folks trying to get rid of TSA battering, but put it in perspective.

There can be but one response:
"This institution will be based on the illimitable freedom of the human mind. For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it."
- Thomas Jefferson to William Roscoe, 27 December 1820

UVa wants to become a small liberal arts school like Sarah Lawrence where the politically correct boxes come already filled-in and where they can charge $50,000 a year for a degree in Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender studies. The very idea of a state school where large numbers of well-qualified students are educated in a wide variety of subjects in an atmosphere of genuine learning and open questioning of current dogma is anathema to the current faculty. Thomas Jefferson would be appalled.

Paul T Jones is exactly what is wrong with America. I hope all women who have any investments with this man move their money like I have.

@ Thomas Jefferson: Really? You base quotes during a period when women had NO rights at all. Your quote is meaningless. TJ didn't even have the constitution to free the slaves. The last thing on our forefather's minds were women's rights to vote, speak, and work.

"There can be but one response:
"This institution will be based on the illimitable freedom of the human mind. For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it."
- Thomas Jefferson to William Roscoe, 27 December 1820"

Misogyny is part of the UVA culture. Jones said what most at UVA think. I'm just stunned that the President of UVA didn't comment. The Rector? Where is the leadership? Oh sorry, I guess donor money trumps everything. What kind of woman is Sullivan? Has she no voice? 1 in 3 UVA girls get unwanted sexual misconduct and Sullivan is silent.

The women in UVA's Admin, there are many, are all bought and paid for. Not a pip about Jones' statement. The Alumni President? No comment.

This was all over the national press and not a pip from Sullivan.

How embarrassing!

@Experience with UVa,

Spot on. Same with racism at UVa, where is the leadership and UVa leaders seem boought off in ths arena as well. While abuse of women is pervasive in many Universities arond the country, I was releived that my daughter passed on going to UVa.

While the Provost stated he and Sullivan didn't agree with the Tudor-Jones hubris enabled misogynistic statement, I would have expected more from them on the Dean's statements shutting down open dialogue on the academic topic.

I do think the historical culture of Virginia and UVa is so elitist, racst, and sexist that Sullivan is up against a tough wall of resistence and denial from the old guard elites who control UVa and indeed all public institutions in the Commonwealth. Her modicum of leadership was probably the impetus for the attempted coup last summer.

It would be nice to see all the women and minority administrators at UVa write a letter that mirrors what the faculty wrote to the Provost. Simon put his job on the line last summer, why don't the women and minority administrators do the same on these issues? Getting large salaries in exchange for silence must cause some ethical dissonance although rationalization psychology must be at play. Is the admministration of UVa so top-down and controlled as to not be able to brook some open discussion and disagreement? Is it a corporation, speak your mind and you get fired? How about a garuntee from the president that any dissent will be tolerated and not be cause for firing? That would go a long way setting the tone for a democratic university.

If you look at the top performers they are almost all men... I don't think the broad in the video is a BILLIONAIRE. The reason women can look "better" on paper is because they are using an average and that average includes the men who have the stones to take the risk you need to make money... some lose and some win. The women play it safe in the investment world and because they are such a small percentage they fair better with their "average", but they didn't make the big returns because they by and large don't have the focus and guts to roll the dice. The investment world needs real risk takers who are not afraid to make the hard decisions and although there are certainly some tough braods out there he is right that most women IN ANY JOB lose focus when they have a newborn. Why are we denying this? They have a new love in their life that is dependent on them, they have an ovetaxed body and are physically tired. If you think they can handle it ask their husbands how often the women "focus" on them with a newborn in the house. Now the same goes for a guy that gets some new vajayjay.. he loses sight of the ball for time but at least we can legally fire him for screwing up. This guy made an observation based on personal experience and until we entered the BS PC world we all could just admit the truth. Now we have to lie about the truth because a few women can compete in a mans world.

If you really want to compete then then you need to look at the hedge funds they are running and compare apples to apples. Of course women would have fewer accidents in the slow lane and they may "average" a better time than the the guys that wreck because they took risks, but they will never be able to come in first because they don't as a group have the testosterone nessasry to compete with all the criminals in the world financial markets.

It does not mean that women are less VALUABLE then men it just means that we each have our own plusses and minuses. For instance, women make better teachers nurses and physical therapists. they make better surgeons and better forensic accountants. They do well with running research in the biomedical field and they are good managers in controlled envrionments but they rarely excel in high pressure fluid situations. Its not because of opportunity it is because of genetic makeup. Of course there are exceptions to the rules and we all know there are a lot of men who can't compete in the high pressure arena either, but if we are talking the cream of the crop men will come out on top if a complicated high pressure decison needs to be made. The smartest investor in the world may in fact be a woman but even if given a chance the top 100 people will always be 80% men.

Thats just nature. A perfect example of a woman trying to do a mans job is Barack Obama. His testosterone is so low its wonder he sired children. Any woman could beat him at almost any traditional male job.BUT he is the exception. The industrial revolution that transformed the world was built with the brains and stones of men using the strong backs of of other men. Without them you women wouldn't have a car to drive or a cappicino maker to get you started in the morning. You can blame men for all of the wars slavery and anything else bad you want but you enjoy the benefits of that NATURAL SELECTION that athists are so fond of.

Don't blame men , blame the the big bang.

Now go make me a sandwich.

I think I understand Jones' point about the need for focus.

Men, for instance - according to an OSU study in 2011, do NOT think about sex every seven seconds, as previously reported.
No, men are focused. They only think about sex about **19 times a day** - about once every hour and a half.

Hmmm ... the study also says that's twice as often as women. I guess that's because women are all spaced out thinking about breast feeding, right?

But wait: turns out men also think food (also 18 times a day) and sleep (about 11 times a day.)

Of course, that doesn't mean the men aren't focused. Well, at least in between the 47 times a day they're thinking about sex, food, or sleep - about **once very 20 minutes** during the hours when they presumably aren't ACTUALLY sleeping.

There's a Huffpost article about the study, here:

@risk taker
Your full of it!
First of all the amount of jobs we're talking about are miniscule in the greater scheme of things.
Risk taking is not a gender based trait. There are enough women risk takers out there to fill every position available. They're just not offered the opportunity.
I can guaranty you 5,000 women in India alone with PHds in Maths/physics and enough testosterone that would blow your theory to pieces. Another 5,000 in China and another 5k in Russia. Those women face every fear a man's world offers each and every day. They're smart and tenacious. They could pick up trading in a heart beat and have more education and brain power than most of your wall street traders. But a'holes like you who run wall street would die before admitting these men could be outdone by women.
When the likes of Jones and Lawrence Summer shows their ignorance by making dumb sexist comments that risk their reputations and careers, it makes one question the intellectual capacity of men if one bases male intelligence on their statements.

I was not completely convinced that if women ruled the world it would be a better place but this whole story and blog posting is moving me rapidly to that conclusion. We probably would not have as many wars, or gun violence, or dirt bags running our financial system into the ground and getting richer while doing it.

The whole narrative here is that women should fit into the dog-eat-dog, capitalist, market-driven, nightmare of a society we have created, rather than thinking if we made the system more equitable and women-friendly, maybe we would have a better society overall. It is not women who are not up to the challenge, its the society that is off its rails with power hungry, selfish, white men running it.

Women and men are not the same and have different strengths and weaknesses and perspectives. Women should have all the same opportunities as men to do whatever jobs they want to do. I tend to generalize that women are more caring, communicative, and self sacrificing and less violent than most men but that maybe an over generalization and a cultural stereotype. Much of our sick male dominated culture has distorted issues of gender. I would hope that women who attain positions of power won't just mimic the white male power and control model. Maybe we need a new model of what it means to be a decent human being? The first place to start is in gender equity and ideas and language like that used by the pathologies of uber-rich white males don't move us forward.

More women in positions of political and economic power might lead to so significant positive social change, let's try it and see what happens. I would love to see what Elizabeth Warren could do as president of the USA. signed- A man

So "experience with UVA "says that the women in India and China are every bit as ruthless as men and "Power to truth " says that women are different and the problem is we live in a world dominated by ruthless men and the solution is to get rid all the ruthless men so that women don't need to be ruthless and the world will be a better place.

So if we do that, won't all those high testosterone indian and chinese women come and take over wall street and do exactly what the old white men are doing now? And if they did would the amercan women blame them for being ruthless?

I don't know what the answer is but we need to do something because women can no longer tolerate being oppressed like June Cleaver was on Leave it to Beaver. I don't know how she could just stay in that house all day surrounded by those three terrible males who showed her love respect and affection.

@ risk taker

take a risk and print your real name. don't knowingly print your crap about gender differences and finish w/ a demeaning statement but fail to be enough of a risk taker to give us your real name.

The problem is the modern tendency to speak in generalizations, in groups, in clumps: "all women" do this, "all men" act like that. Stick with specifics. You can rightly say "Barbara lost her focus on trading when she had a baby," so long as you add--"but Mary did not, she's one of our best--and Bob lost his focus when his alcoholism kicked in, and then there's Bruce who left with his partner for Tahiti." It is equally wrong to say all women lose their focus when they have babies as it would be to say all men are undependable alcoholics. The problem here, as elsewhere, is the egalitarian urge to assume everybody is the same and acts the same, to take one example and generalize from that to the whole planet.

Anyone in this day and age that assumes when some is talking in a broad generalization about a race, group, gender, dog breed, or car line that they are including every single person or thing in that group is really just being anal. There is nothing wrong with someone saying " mexicans are some of the hardest workers on the planet" (all of them ? Even the quadrplegics?) or "Eithiopian people are so friendly" (all of them ..even the radical islamic jhiadists from ethiopia?) Some of us can understand without a disclaimer.

I guess people are wrong when they presume to think a listener actually has the ability to determine context. In the words of Bill Engvall "heres your sign"

This guy is an absolute moron.

Its funny how every time I make a statement its taken out of context. Jones stated that women are unable to focus once they have children. My point was that perhaps that is true of women in the west because their enlightened counterparts, the knuckle dragging ones, have "socialized" them as such. Women in the eastern cultures, will have children and return straight to work without blinking. Actually they do it all without a pip! and yes of course Mr. Marshall will find a point to disagree about anything but there are always exceptions to the rule!

So in case you missed my point it has nothing to do with GENDER, but more to do with learned and inherited behavior. My point wasn't that women have to emulate white males in being indifferent and ruthless. My point was that women can focus and deliver the same results. Not all women just as in not all men. How long ago was it that people thought people of color didn't have the same intellectual capacity? Time for some re-thinking when it comes to women. It's really no different, it's only because the civil rights movement has totally ignored gender discrimination. For crying out loud, it's 2013 and we still haven't passed the ERA!!!!

PS: I'm a man!

If people in power could make money off of women they would do so just like they do with models actresses and porn stars. The discrimination has to do with confidence in their abilities more than their private parts. These women in the east that drop a kid and go back to work are not running hedge funds they are doing laundry. Your comparison doesn't wash. I don't know if as a group women cold make it head to head with men but I do know they can't compete in labor intensive jobs in most cases<<<<<<

Marshall, you already established you are a neanderthal with prior posts on the subject of rape, now you've established you are a racist too. I specifically referred to PhDs and not laundry women. Perhaps if you visit Hong Kong, Singapore and mainland China you would think differently. It's called broadening your horizons. Trust me Charlottesville or Virginia for that matter is not the center of civilization.

Nobody in the position of power is going to part with it easily just because they stand to make a buck. Using women for porn is a necessity to the business, without them there is no industry, and in general they're not paid that well. As for actresses they make less than their counterparts, why? What about women who work in Obama's Whitehouse? Why do they make less? Oh, because they're not as bright as the men.

Margaret Thatcher was a very successful woman. She was continuously discriminated against all her adult life. From her days in Oxford all the way to 10 Downing Street. She was a woman. She loved dresses, perfume and the man in her life. How many Maggies are out there? Probably thousands and yet they're not given the opportunity to step up to the plate because of people like you who dismiss women as unable. Instead we falsely encourage women like Hilary Clinton as the model to follow. Stand by your man when he cheats on you and cry when you lose the primaries. Thatcher never cried once, not even when her own cabinet and party betrayed her. Trust me there are plenty of women who can lead and deal with the pressures of trading just as well as the men.

KKK - Paul Tudor Jones II: originated from the first 6 clansmen in the USA; should be so proud!

Imperial Wizards / 5 eras -- Paul Tudor Jones - 1st family of the KKK the popular social club originating in Tennessee. Paul T. Jones should be so proud. No wonder his thoughts regarding women are so off! History of clansmen.

1st Era - 1866 to approximately 1874
General Nathan Bedford Forrest
Title of "Grand Wizard"

Nathan Bedford Forrest (good friend to Calvin Jones - Paul Tudor Jones grandfather) one of the first 6 members of the KKK)
Born July 13, 1821 Chapel Hill, Tennessee
Died October 29, 1877 near Memphis, Tennessee
Nickname "The Wizard of the Saddle"
Confederate General in charge of "Forrest's Cavalry"
In 1907 Thomas Dixon (1/11/1864 - 4/3/1946), a native of North Carolina published a book entitled, THE CLANSMEN pertaining to the KKK of the Reconstruction Era; he also published two other novels pertaining to the KKK (THE LEOPARD'S SPOTS and THE TRAITOR). These three books are now published together as one book entitled THE RECONSTRUCTION TRILOGY by the Noontide Press (preface by Sam Dickson).
In 1915 D.W. Griffith, a Kentuckian, produced his silent movie classic, BIRTH OF A NATION pertaining to the Civil War and Reconstruction Era. He "glorified" the KKK.

More on the history of Paul Tudor Jones II family: "a new social club called the Ku Klux Klan was created for the recreation purposes of Confederate veterans. [Here Mr. Ward betrays his ignorance. Calvin and his friends began night rides to the homes of naive and frightened freed slaves, dressed in Confederate soldiers' uniforms and wearing grey hoods, pretending to be the ghosts of dead soldiers--perhaps in context, these idle rich boys could be seen as engaging in "innocent" entertainment, but it stemmed from resentment and the Southern desire to prevent former slaves from voting and exercising other kinds of personal and organized power."

and: "A final note about my distant cousin Calvin E. Jones, one of the original six founders of the KKK: He left Tennessee and died a broken man, bitter and full of angst. The KKK is still unfortunately growing and evolving in not just the United States, but in Europe as well, as it joins hands with neo-Nazis, skinheads, and other groups whose core principles include the universal terrorist notion of the divine right of supremacy of one's own indentity group. One of the real ironies of the KKK is that so very many of us in America were back then and still are the descendants of white men and their female slaves (African, Native American, South American, even Europeans "of color"). May genealogical DNA testing live long and prosper and continue to burst our human bubbles of certainty that we are 100% whom we think we are.

never ever been succumbed to women who were denied the right to VOTE; the right to WORK; and the right to FAIR WAGE. So why are all these men dominating this page? Because the women are out there working and trying to make up for lost time due to MEN's laws in the United States.

Paul Tudor Jones ancestery proves the Jones are mysogynists and long history with the KU KLUX KLAN.

LOL The thespian lesbian wasn't really crying.

Experience with UVA I never codoned rape. I defended the process of law without wavering and was proven correct last Friday. Dumler crossed the line and paid the price. The price was not high enough for some but the process worked. There are drunk drivers who killed people who walked, Justice is not always pretty and can't please everybody.

As for Chinese and Indian woman popping out kids and going back to work without so much as a tug on their heartstrings, it may be cultural or a learned behavior but it is not normal in nature for any female mammal to abandon their child. That is my take on what he was saying because I have a brain and am not burdened with with the feminist cuckold mentality that SOME men in this town have. There are obviously women who can do it and some who put their job first. That is a cultural change that as a neanderthal I don't care for and there are a lot of women who don't care for it either. When men with newborns put the job first it is traditionally to be the breadwinner so that the mother of the child can be free to be the mother she needs to be. That world is changing but I would bet there are a lot of single mothers out there who wished they had a husband to bring home the bacon so they didn't have to stick their kid in daycare and deal with customers all day. Remember it is only a small percentage of people who have careers. most people have "jobs" and many hate those. Women already have the right to compete in the workplace but it is up to them to compete and not up to men to,lower the bar because they want to have a child. If you want it equal then grow a set. This guy says that HIS PERSONAL EXPERIENCE has shown him that when women in his field have a child and come back to work they lose some of their skills and those skills are very nessasary to compete in a very competitive and high risk marketplace. Given the choice I would rather have a newborns father vs a newborns mother mix my drugs, perform my surgery or defuse a bomb in times square because I believe that nature does affect mothers and fathers differently when it comes to newborn children. I would even go so far as to say that nature would give the father MORE ability to focus on being a provider and defender of the roost from outside sources.

But I also understand that we are culturally evolving into a secular society where men are wimps and women are ball busters and because of technology welfare and liberal wealth redistribution policies men won't need to be men anymore and women can have husbands that tow the line and ask permission to go play golf, buy a tool or have sex.

Of course the wife will also feel no guilt as she leaves the kid in daycare while she goes over a real mans house and gets railed on his pool table for a few hours while her husband does the shopping.

None of that will change the FACT that most women do lose some of thier abilities to focus when a child suckles the breast.


Are you a member of the Tea Party?

Why would anyone feel the need to defend these comments, not because men and women are not different but because huge generalizations are inherently flawed. Just because someone is successful and candid does not mean they don't have an elaborate personal world view made up of thousands of prejudices (in the broadest sense of the word). So, conversely, why would anyone feel the need to pillory this guy? Its is entirely reasonable and consistent to say both: it's no surprise he has this attitude and its helpful that his candor confirms that it exits in his industry. Each of us has indefensible opinions of some sort or another. Its fine to recognize that this guy is both wrong and an accurate barometer of attitudes in his industry. perception is reality, and self fulfilling prophesies are real. dude is at least in part the product of his environment. so are you. studies show that when faced with tangible evidence that their beliefs are or may be incorrect, people (male and female) more often than not actually re-trench their views and close their minds to reason and logic in favor of emotion. i.e. when insecure we reject that ability which is at the core of what makes humans unique. there's no winning this one. note how "jimi" goes straight to the liberal card to attack those who are offended? note how "experience" goes to the racist card to attack one who is defending Jones? trhat is why TJ was wrong in saying we shouldn't tolerate any error. in fact, you should tolerate any error you can tolerate. that will do more to correct it than attacking it.

The fact is that Jones and others like him have this impression and they have the power in their industry to make that impression a reality. So he's not wrong in a sense, he's just limited, and has probably paid the price many times by absorbing loses made by some males and never realizing profits that could have been made by some females. But he needs security in his person way more than he needs profits so its a very fair trade off for him. No amount of outrage in newspaper articles by his perceived "opponents" and no amount of factual data or logical arguments is gonna change that, only make him less candid, which prevents the rest of the world from access to useful information.

If you are bothered, follow mindy's lead and move your money, maybe go a step further and let a woman manage it.

and rick moore: nice job pointing out the irony in "risk taker's" handle. best part of this thread.

Pursuant to stew's suggestion re: having a woman manage your money, may I suggest The Family Firm in Bethesda, MD? Founded by Mary Malgoire, it's a fee-only money management company - and among the best.

From this "discourse" ?? meaning the various comments, it becomes evermore painfully obvious, that UVA students are not involved in the process that governs the operations of the University (where are the student comments?)

Marshall, you are living in the past.

You're the one that thinks all asian women drop babies and go back to laundry duties. You completely missed the point because you are so narrow minded. For you a liberated woman is one that can behave like macho men, sexually depraved and that they get "railed." Who are you?

The fact that even Pakistan, a muslim country, has elected a woman as leader goes to show how far we have been left behind. Our woman still have to fight the supposed educated classes in this country. Graduates of UVA who think a woman should be bare foot and in the kitchen.

As for the students at UVA, they're not taught to think independently. UVA is no longer a place of learning. It's the number one Party School according to Playboy. Not because it's really about the parties. It's about the alcohol, drugs, roofies and sex (rape included). Anyone can drink without getting into trouble unlike most other colleges where carding and bar raids are not uncommon. At UVA/Cville the ploice are told to turn a blind eye when it comes to students. UVA is an alcohol soaked ghetto. Just go to the corner on any week-end and you will see drunk and disorderly students roaming all night as police walk and drive by as if it's normal.

Power to Truth. No I am not a member of the tea party . Nor am I a member of any politcal party. But I do believe that the extremes of both parties can bring us to our knees. Governments have risen and fallen and we have enjoyed power and strength for a very long time. Anyone that thinks we cannot collapse under our own weight has never read world history.

Stew, I feel a need to defend the comments because they are trying to villify the comments as wrong and biased and I don't think they are. You can disagree with his conclusions but that does not mean he is wrong. There are articles everyday in womens magazines about women who tried to do both and were miserable. They freely admit that it affected their career and chose home life over work. They confirm his assertion. Maybe he wasn't as politically correct as some people would like but F them, As long as he can laugh off their attacks he can say what he wants. If UVA doesn't want his money someone else will be glad to put it to good use. Anyone that thinks that he believes ALL women feel overwhelming love and attacthment to their newborn after childbirth is an idiot. Generalizations are fine as long as the listener has a lick of common sense to determine what is being said. We do not need to qualify every single statement because some people choose to be offended instead of actually thinking about the situation. If I say all these old white guys in Congress are the problem it does not mean that EVERY old white guy in Congress is the problem it means that enough of them who are like minded are causing a lot of problems. They know who they are based on the context of the entire conversation.I could be refferring to banking, welfare, abortion or any other subject. If one individual Congressman gets upset with me for lumping him in or not excepting him out then then that is his problem not mine. If a particular woman wants to take offense because she had a child and went back to work without remorse then that is her problem and she needs to deal with her thin skin or hear the backlash from someone like me when she bellyaches about it. Neither of us are entitled to the last word on the matter as it is a fluid social situation.

As for the women outperforming men if you examine the types of funds women run and compare apples to apples they are all very close. You can skew "average" numbers because men are generally higher risktakers, are running in the higher risk circles because they have been their awhile compared to many women and male /female ratio overall. The claim that women do better is irrelevant. Women are very rarely in the top ten performers. The true comparison would be to compare the working women who have had children and what their before/after graph looks like and what their reviews from their coworkers are. Finding one woman who had kids and still succeeded who claims they had no material affect does not nullify this mans apparent experience with at least a few women who didn't fare so well.

The guy didn't lie. He just got villified for telling what he witnessed.

I did not vilify him nor say he was wrong (nor do you say that I did). What I said is that he was right within the context that he himself is a key element in creating.

I did say that your desire to defend him (and attack his attackers) and others desire to attack him (and defend his attackers) are equally counter productive.

Evidence shows most of the time most people "witness" what they wish to see.

Experience with UVA .
I may long for more of the past but am not living in it. I don't think women should be "barefoot and pregnant" nor do I think they should be prohibited from compteing in any arena they want to compete in but I don't think we need to lower the bar to compensate for any inabilities they bring with them. If a woman wants to haul wheelbarrows of cement and she can do it give her the job , but if she cannot keep up with the men because she is physically smaller then just like the small framed man who cannot keep up she needs to move on. The same holds true for Wall Street. if she can do it fine, but if she has a kid and loses focus and cannot meet the production criteria then she needs to move on just like if a man gets too involved in intramural softball and loses focus. They made choices and need to live with the consequences. If she wants a child and a job then she needs to do both and if the job suffers then she needs to get out of the way so someone else can do it.

I am all for women running hedge funds, and I think they will probably do just fine, However I think when a woman has a kid more often than not they will lose focus and that is malpractice when you are controlling billions of dollars of other peoples money.

If you think we are "behind" Pakistan you have a screw loose.

I don't think a woman is "depraved" if she gets railed on a pool table. I think that it is a normal healthy act for a woman to want o be railed once in a while. I would imagine if you asked women to recall the best sex they ever had "pool table" would come in way ahead of "wimpy husband begging " or "husband respecting me enough to only do it in a bed"

Marshall, you're one of those apes who thinks that a young woman with a mini skirt was asking for it!!! She really wanted it. Not that the rapist asked.

Well , if she is hanging out at a well known frat house at three in the morning doing jello shots she may not be "asking for it" but not unlike someone who goes swimming in the swamp with alligators I will say she is a victim of her own stupidity and hubris as much as she is a victim of the rapist. That does not mean we don't lock up the rapist but we have just as much obligation to educate women to be careful as we do men to act appropriately. The real world says that a man can't walk down the city streets counting his money at three AM even though that is perfectly legal behavior. It's called being prudent. As a society we can only do so much and women need to help society protect them. If that makes me an "ape" then so be it.

Experience , you are one of those woosies who calls his sex partner "mommy" and folds her underwear when she makes you do the laundry. .... ahhhh.....I am just kidding ... she probably doesn't "make" you do it... you volunteer.

Bill, you are third rate guy proud of his third rate big state school. You deserve each other.

Big Dog, Third rate... sure. I'll take that..... but I have nothing to do with UVA and never have...

RIGHT ON Thomas Jefferson!

Otherwise, there is now a VAST amount of neuroscience data demonstrating the profound difference between the neuroendocrine functions of males and females. Indeed, simply revealing in the most sophisticated technological terms what our species has already known since before we were even living as civilizations...

Marshall, I can count my money anywhere I choose. Perhaps I am stupid to do it in public, at night, but if someone robs me its still robbery!

I can afford to have others fold laundry but I find your narrative about sexuality archaic. Your vision of a woman is about "railing" and treating a woman like a whore, because that's how women really like to be treated. You know these things. What will women do when your generation of apes disappear? OMG life without marshalls! Unimaginable! How will women be sexually satisfied without the marshalls of the world?

My wife is a much better cook than I am so I am the assistant in the kitchen. I suppose in your myopic world that makes me servile. Haha...

I guess I am a mysoginist....

Experience with UVA says:Marshall, I can count my money anywhere I choose. Perhaps I am stupid to do it in public, at night, but if someone robs me its still robbery!

But according to the crazies on this forum if you exchange "county my money" with "walk drunk dressed like a hooker" they are not "stupid" and have zero culpability for becomng a victim. The law is nothing more than words on a piece of paper and help once you call 911. It cannot "protect" you in the here and now unless you are lucky enough to have somoene step in and intervene. Personal responsibility goes a long way in this world to make sure you have a decent life. That means you take advantage of education, look both ways before crossing the street and do some homework about where and with whom you are headed into a vunerable situation with. Ther people on this forum don't feel that women should have to do that because all men are evil or responsible for the actions of other men. Well If I come across a rape in progress I would beat the the hell out of the guy but I am not going to walk down the streets at two am with a baseball bat to protect women who don't even care enough about themselves to take prudent precautions. (the same as a man counting his money)

.... as for what are we going to do when "apes" like me disappear.. well I suppose that women will just have to do as I presume a lot of women with wimpy husbands do now... read Fifty shades of Grey in the bathtub, give their servile husbands "permission" lie there and think of apes like me and then when he can't get the job done buy a toy online and hope he leaves early for work.

Poor little Billy Marshall - plagued by delusional fantasies that wimmin are lying in their baths thinking of him.

I suppose there's some solace in that notion, but gosh. He needs to meet some actual wimmin. C'mon, Billy - sure, they're scary, but just go ahead and talk to one sometime. You know you want it.

Hell - WE know you want it.

Losing focus allowing Marshall to dominate the discourse here. Some tidbits in the story that need further attention:

"That apparently isn't enough for some UVA professors. As the Post reported, a professor who spoke on the condition of anonymity, afraid for their career, accused UVA officials of being "afraid to speak out" because they didn't want to upset a big donor."

Ironically, McIntire Dean Carl P. Zeithaml, who also played a part in the events of last summer by accepting and then rejecting the post of interim UVA president during the crisis, asked the audience not to record the event, as he wanted to encourage the speakers to be candid. Incidentally, moderating the event was Jeffery Walker, a founder of J.P. Morgan Partners, and the inspiration for Rector Dragas' focus on online education during last year's failed coup.

“No quotes with attribution should leave the room,” Zeithaml said. “We must prohibit any discussion or description of the event in print or video, through electronic media or through Internet-based technologies including websites, blogs or social media, such as Twitter or Facebook.”

A university culture in which people are afraid to speak out for fear of losing their jobs? Fear of upsetting big donors? Deans shutting down open discourse?

Following up on Dave McNair's excellent coverage of the VQR story, He should follow up on these aspects of the story here. The organizational culture of UVa is rotten if professors feel afraid to speak out because of fear of retribution. Start with how deans are selected and how much poet they are given to enforce the quieting of dissent. There is all tis clamoring against the BOV for not communicating and for being top-down but should that not also apply to Madison Hall and the Deans and they way they treat faculty?

What Jones said was crazy talk of the pathologically wealthy. Free speech and all that. The real story here is the culture of a University where faculty are fearful to engage in free speech because of donor power. Philanthropy is just another word for wealthy control of a public university. But administrators pander to this because they have lost sight of what it means to be a real academic questioning assumptions.

Zeithaml should be made an example of by the Provost for his tyrannical behavior. End the culture of fear at UVA and start with replacing deans with people who promote open dialogue, discussion, and even dissent. Democratize UVA from the inside out.

Ironically, female-type academics suffer from "The Mom Penalty."

Bill you are such a he-man!

Power to truth, so you are saying that because they wanted people to be candid and asked people not to give censors fodder to attack them that is a bad thing? There would be no need to do that if people were not so anal and allowed people their opinions. They are villifying this guy for stating what he KNOWS to be the truth in his experience. He felt that he was in a safe envrionment to speak candidly but alas he was not.

I understand that the people that were offended felt that UVA would lose funds if they attacked his words as hate speech and that may be true (and he would be justified to take offense) but if instead they respectfully disagreed with him while acknowledging that he was telling the truth from his experience and debated the issue further to clarify and find a more accepteable middle ground all would have been okay. It is the PC police who are the problem not him.

I guess he would have been named a hero if he had said that when women are PMSing big time they take risks and make more money and are therefore more valuable than a man.

There was no chance to be candid as free speech was shut down by the Dean and by the organzational culture. He could have said women are superior and no one would have had a chance to respectfully or discrespectfully disagree because there is no academic free speech when it comes to the ideas of wealthy donors. I suggest there is no space to debate anything when money and power are present. Also who set up the panel There was no diversity on the panel.That sends a message as well. At this point the content of his speech is not as relevant as the restriction of free discourse because the Dean, who seems to represent the Donor class, shut it down. The rich have free speech rights as well but the power of money and administrator pandering pollutes the environment in which the discourse occurs.

In this case the PC police was the Dean.

What's wrong with someone not retaining their focus on their job/career when they've had a baby? Believe me looking after a baby is really hard work. you can barely sleep never mind spend your day trading.


As you so accurately state, the faculty are fearful to speak up. However, the students who are often naive enough to think they can speak up are ruthlessly silenced by intimidation (openly practiced by the Dean of Students office) and veiled threat of the single sanction honor code. They cherry pick students for elite positions such as student council, Jeff scholars etc so that they have much to lose. All these student leaders are compromised and find out quickly that with the privileges comes a price of towing the line.

The level of corruption at UVA is absolute because it is absolutely unchecked. The only authority that can change such corruption is at the Federal level and unfortunately they are overwhelmed. UVA is a law onto itself as it controls everything and everyone in Charlottesville and many in Richmond. One day you will wake up to a huge story similar to the Penn State scandal of cover up because there are so many cover ups of felony crimes at UVA. Statistically its only a matter of time.

Tenured professors at UVA are afraid to state their minds? Isn't that what tenure is all about? Seems like the professors who silenced themselves disgraced their profession as well as UVA.


I agree. I wish Dave McNair would do a follow-up investigative report on this. I was somewhat hopeful that, as Sullivan is an ousider-non good ole boy, she might make progress in cleaning up UVA. It is a tough nut to crack and she can't do it alone if she has the will do it.

The big tell tale sign will be what they do with the three deans who are up for reappointment. If they reppoint the ones who have been creamed by faculty surveys, that means they don't care about cleaning up the culture. They need to do a Dean by dean review that really accounts for faculty perspectives as one component of the problem. Now, there are some schools or departments that have leaders who are loved because they deliver n salaries and perks but who don't belong as deans. The quality for selecting deans and department chairs should be transparaency, responsiveness to fauclty input, creating an open culture with no retribution.

The first test of that is coming up with the dean reappointment process. UVa could be the best public university in the world if it just followed jefferson's advice on democracy and internalized it as an organizational model. This would require a bold statement by the President followed up with mesages about ending retribution, fdemocratic leadership, followed up by replacing certain deans and department chairs with those that truly support transparency. Just think if UVa could become the shining example of democracy in bureaucratic action. There's a streategic plan I could get behind.


yes it still happens. Assistant professors are afraid they won't get tenured. Some Associates fear they won't get promoted to full. Some people feel if they speak up against the narratives of deans and department chairs they will be penalized when it comes to raises, or service assignments, or marginalized in the organization. It is a cultureal thing. There is also IMHO, a climate that encourages the go along to get along mentality. There is a divide and conquer strategy as those who "cooperate" curry favor with adminsitrators. There are cliques that form becuase of the environmental conditions.

It seemed fine for faculty to speak their minds during the crisis with the BOV, but does that carry over when they are criticalof the President or Provost or their Deans or department chairs? It cuts both ways. Star faclty with lots of grant funding seem to beable so speak freely, but what about the others?

The one is set by the Leaders and who they put in charge of schools and departments. Its a culture and climate. A change here would make UVa a much stronger place.

I know nothing about whether UVA has a culture of felonious cover-ups, bone deep corruption and un-constitutional repression, so I leave that to the rest of the peanut gallery here.

However, as to the issue at hand: this symposium was called "Views from Investment Masters." Well, that's exactly what we got. Disagree with some of those "views" all you want or agree with it all you want. Both are allowed. Form your opinion about PTJ or about the investment banking industry based on that view all you want. That's allowed too. Force PTJ to change his mind? Not your right. Force people to say that they think differently than they actually do? Counter productive and, ultimately, very scary.

As to the "repression," what UVA apparently wanted was for those "views from Investment Masters" to be shared only with those who payed for the symposium (or however attendance was determined), and for them to be merely hearsay for all others. PR blunder? Maybe. Unenforceable? Maybe. Big deal? Not really.

The symposium was about listening to views of the "Masters," not about correcting the views of the "masters." If you want to host a "Disagreeing with the Views of the Masters of Investment" symposium, go right ahead.

Charlottesville figures in Rory Kennedy's recent documentary about the life of her mother, Ethel Kennedy. Ethel recounts how she and Bobby invited Nobel Peace Prize winner Ralph Bunche to speak at the law school in 1958. Because no hotels in Charlottesville at that time welcomed blacks, Bunche stayed with the Kennedys at their house on Rothery Road. Ethel recounts how all night long local white people from Charlottesville threw rocks and bricks at their house.
These are the same kind of people running UVA today and posting on this site.

Repression of ideas by Deans is always a big deal, unless you are part of the repressors.

I think its the job of an academic dean to host a forum with a variety of view points. Why doesn't he use his authority to host the "Disagreeing with the Views of the Masters of Investment" symposium. This exactly how poer works, the authorities host symposia with one narrow perspective and thereby propte the persective of the discourse allowed and authorized.

"Masters" what an (in)appropriate word to use at UVa. When the Masters come in and spout off mysoginist and capitalist propaganda are we suppoed to just sit there and say "yes Master"?

Interesting connection Big Dog.

It's just that Charlottesville has never been an enlightened place, pretty maybe, but never enlightened.

And as for the cowardly academics who won't speak out for fear of sabotaging their careers, they get what they deserve.

Repression of ideas by Deans is always a big deal, unless you are part of the repressors.

I think its the job of an academic dean to host a forum with a variety of view points. Why doesn't he use his authority to host the "Disagreeing with the Views of the Masters of Investment" symposium. This exactly how poer works, the authorities host symposia with one narrow perspective and thereby propte the persective of the discourse allowed and authorized.

"Masters" what an (in)appropriate word to use at UVa. When the Masters come in and spout off mysoginist and capitalist propaganda are we suppoed to just sit there and say "yes Master"?

Interesting connection Big Dog.

@ Big dog,

I don't wholely disagree that they get what they deserve if they don't speak up, but that goes for everyone else in a workplace publlic or private. With employment law in this part of the world the way it is, employers have all the power and people have no free speech rights inthe workplace which is ridiculous because we spend a third of our day every day in the workplace. This is how the legal system and the economic system reinforce repression.

Faculty, especially tenured faculty should speak out and exercise free speech and academic freedom. If they don't things get done to them. But this occurs in an organizational and political culture and that can't be ignored. Look at wha happened to Wende marshal, the asst. professor who was arrested in a Living wage protest in Madison Hall-Gone. Look at Deena Bowers a staff member at UVa who spoke out-gone.

So I am less inclided to blame the victim.

These are troubling times for UVA. There are many state schools where the governor, the board of directors, the faculty, and the students are all rowing together to make their school a better institution. Here we have Dragas and Sullivan locked in a battle like two scorpions while the state's governor is out orbiting Pluto and where the faculty are afraid to speak their mind. At a university whose founder could not put pen to paper without leaving scorch marks. Just sad.

Just saying that freedom, intellectual, academic or otherwise, has to be earned, not expected, and it would be refreshing to see some UVA faculty grow some balls.
However, as you have said, the culture at UVA is nostalgic and backwards, so iconoclastic faculty here probably would be happier in Madison, WI, for ex

@George and @Big Dog,

I agree, I think Faculty at UVa have to stop thinking of themselves as part of the VA elite and wake up to the realization that the Richmomd elite were referring to them as the "inmates running the asylum" last summer. Faculty need to understand that their bread is buttered on the Jefferson side. The Faculty Senate stood up strongly but many faculty have the attitude of just leave me alone to do my research, let's not make waves. There are divides between science faculty and liberal arts faculty in some instances, between star and non-star faculty. We need some unity and activism, but UVa culture and its hiring practices don't breed for that.

The faculty need to realize after last summer that their professional lives are political now, it will take constant political action in this environment. They make just see the summer as an episode and go back to sleep. That would be problematic. Faculty are not going to be left alone to do their work whether its global warming or politics or Lady Gaga. It was encouraging to see so many faculty sign on to that letter of protest about Jones' comments.

The faculty Senate is under excellent leadership for the next two years so one would hope they can wake the faculty up to the realities of the day.

Paul Tudor Jones is a misogynist just as most of the male posters on this page. I see no need to read the hook.

@posters: You really need to look at a woman's point of view...then we can have a relevant debate; otherwise, you are out of touch or need meds.

this post is just blah blah blah blah...from men who are attempting to redirect the topic...ick!

What gives HOOK?

@tenured MALE professors: Women lived a lifetime or two or three under these conditions. Get over yourselves and help women succeed! Then maybe it will be paid forward. Women should have reparations granted based on the stupidity of men in this country! Males crying about UVA politics...just go to work and earn your living!

Right on Power@!

He is a misogynist.

What about non tenured women professors? Aren't we talking about a culture that oppresses women, minorities, and even some males who speak up against it? If the males stop crying about uva politics and go back to work, how will they be able to help women succeed? Some males are complaining about the same politics that oppress women. I am all for reparations but if I stop crying about it no one else will. I was glad to see the xx group respond to this crisp and also glad they got some males to not go back to work and earn their living for long enough to sign that letter to the provost.

Tenured professors are intimidated by the dept budget cuts/approvals. If Admin is unethical, which we all know is the case, then it's easy to bully tenured profs.

They have to get over being so easily intimidated
Surely someone on the faculty has the courage of their convictions
This is another reason UVA is a third rate place: the faculty has no guts

repressing PTJ's comments is just as repressive as repressing opposition to his comments. I'm not saying there is no repression of ideas by deans, but there is no evidence of it in this article. one professor speaking anonymously saying that he/she is afraid to be fired if they say PTJ is wrong is not proof of anything. simply trying to limit the access to the information presented in the symposium may be ill advised, but it is not necessarily repression, it is more likely commoditization. Guess what? Universities make money by selling information, and not all of it is "The Truth." Why should a professor feel they are required comment on these things? Is every professor supposed to publicly say whether they agree or disagree with everything presented in every classroom or symposium at UVA? plenty of people noticed. plenty of people say PTJ is wrong in their fact, hosting this symposium seems to have gone a long way to letting him hoist himself with his own petard. That he paid for it with his own money is only a wonderful irony.

So some rich guy who people will pay to hear speak is a misogynist - big surprise! hold the presses! UVA should not censor guest speakers or professors. Don't like the class or symposium? don't attend. Feel there needs to be balance in the views presented ? go do something about that. Why not use some of PTJ's money to host a symposium with Renée Haugerud or etc? going to the "spineless, cowed faculty card" w out presenting more evidence than this just seems like ax grinding.

and saying that the faculty need to get more political in order to "fight" this "repression" is just a terrible idea. look at our national political culture! Its a complete farce with a huge advertizing budget - where there is politics, truth suffers. It becomes more important to win and build sides than to say what you think. And that environment is the ripest to be taken advantage of by those with big money to advance their agendas, because they work unobserved and un-checked on both sides of the "battle lines." Where there are all sorts of unvarnished opinions loose in the chaos of the "marketplace of ideas" is where truth has better a chance to be recognized as such.

Thought police = bad.

On a related note, there should be public oversight (by taxpayers and elected politicians) and press scrutiny of this "Contemplative Sciences Center" -- which in part sponsored this event (as well as an event at the John Paul Jones arena by the Jois-Ashtanga instructors from Greenwich).

The BOV minutes tell the tale of a new physical home for the Center to the tune of $13 million dollars. Where will this be located? (Cocke Hall? Wilson?) Where is the money coming from? Who has administrative authority?

From its website (bearing UVa's name but strangely a ".org" address), this Center is almost a parallel institution:

"CSC is addressing this gap directly by exploring the building of a global University located fully in the Web and designed from the ground up for a distributed community of teachers, students, and citizens accessing each other and content through the Web. Rather than a simple transfer of brick and mortar University realities into digital form, we are designing the Contemplative University in terms of knowledge generation, acquisition, and dissemination - across learning, research, engagement, community, libraries, presses – in ways that make native sense within the digital medium, and across a global community. The University will offer instruction and knowledge products regarding contemplation per se across diverses traditions, but will also address contemplatively-based approaches to education and understanding across a broad array of fields – humanities, health sciences, business, education, architecture, law, engineering, leadership and public policy, and more. UVa will support the technology and adminsitration of the Contemplative University, but we intend for its eventual governance to involve a worldwide consortium of Universities and non-profits with central commitments to contemplation."

As this new Center attempts to transform UVA, will the academic calendar be realigned to recognize "moon days" of rest?

Thought police = Bad

Commodization = bad

Putting Gag order on a symposium =Bad

Faculty engagement and participation = Good. (Proof = We got Sullivan back)

The world does not center around UVA and it certainly does not revolve around the 'I slept in a HI express' crowd.

For someone as successful as PJ to share his observations (good or bad) they should not be dismissed simply because they are not PC. If his observation is correct maybe there is solution to correct it instead of denying it exists. If it does not exist then maybe his is just a pig. THINK.

Paul T Jones is from old school KKK roots. There is no reason to allow a man with his views to represent UVA.

Contemplative Sciences is a tax shelter and nothing more for the Jones'.

I am nom fan of PTJ but it is unfair to associate him with the views of the KKK just because an ancestor of his belonged. PTJ had no control over that, obviously.

I do think he should realize that these buildings he is giving to UVa come with massive operating and maintenance costs. The money could go into scholarship funds instead and be more useful.

And am I the only who thinks the ambience and attractiveness of the campus is going downhill fast? The Rotunda and Lawn are incomparable and a few blocks of Rugby Road are attractive, but the rest of the campus (er, grounds) seems increasingly pedestrian if not downright ugly.

Good point. Every big donor should be required to give a significant percentage to a scholarship for low income students.

I realize many of the new buildings are from donations and the dorm expansions are to raise more tuition money but if the state supported uva at 100% as it should, maybe they could keep the size of the university reasonable, and use the donor money for scholarships. Every low income student could go for free. And we could build fewer but better looking buildings.

Maybe jones should be required to give a few million to the women's center?

Paul Tudor Jones is a KKK member!

@ George - Really? You have not had the 'privilege' of bumping elbows with the elite on a more private basis...have you?

Do you really think these erroneous off-handed comments that Paul Tudor Jones II have stated in public view are just made up and you are imagining things?

You are seriously misguided and need to be fully informed.

At one time, Paul T Jones himself was a full fledged KKK member. AND, he cannot deny it! Just ask him!



KKK FOUNDER: Paul T. Jones II - grandfather, Calvin was founding member of the first 6 members of the KKK. The apple does not fall far from the tree. Paul T. Jones II believes women are not up to the challenge of being a trader...really PTJ?

Is Paul Tudor Jones II hiring black folk like me? What is the wage and will I be paid like all others? What is your hourly wage for a chef, housekeeper, groundskeeper in dark skin...huh, PTJ?

Why is the KKK and Paul Tudor Jones II off limits?

Why can't the UVA and those engaging in serious conversation with the Hook wanting a serious debate about the terrible outcomes and setbacks for women and black Americans off limits that go back to Calvin Jones, Paul Tudor Jones II 's grandfather?

Let's discuss this issue about the advantages of Paul Tudor Jones II and his family and how terribly they treated blacks and women. The Jones enslaved both.

Paul T Jones only wants to have peace and tranquility among the other Yogi...Has anyone looked into how the Jones' were able to pull off and screw the

Seriously, why aren't we discussing the horrible KKK and its founders like those of Paul Tudor Jones II and his family relations to the founding of the KKK in the USA?

Where is the discussion about the Yogi who died so that the Jones' could start their Yoga franchise? Seriously!

I do not like that the UVA is associated with such KKK and death mongers like Paul T. Jones and his family. The UVA should and must look into the Jones' long term intentions. Who is maintaining the contemplative science yoga studio and what is is costing out students and faculty to maintain? HUH? Is the UVA rector asleep at the job?

What is happening to the UVA? KKK influence by Yogi masters who took over after the death of the true YOGI? What gives UVA?


I have not met PTJ but I do not consider him "elite" in any aspect. I find it difficult to believe the University is accepting money from a KKK member; hopefully you can provide some details.

As for PTJ being anti-women, the whole yoga nonsense has the air of a rich dude being led around by the nose - BY HIS WIFE.

Perhaps we can just string Tibetan prayer flags from one side of the Lawn to the other for a semester and call it a done deal? And give the money to some poor kids for scholarships?

I find it ironic that the founder of this Contemplative Studies center is making such huge gaffes as this.

What is alarming about what Jones said is that he believes it. Misogyny is UVA culture. One point that underscores this is the fact that an associate Dean, also Chair of the Colllege's Sexual Misconduct Board, in a recent interview with the Cav Daily shamelessly admitted that UVA has never expelled ANY student for sexual misconduct. Apparently "rape" victims are never really believed and even repeat offenders never really mean to rape. The fact that not one rapist has ever been expelled is more than alarming!!!

Read this recent case of a victim in her own words expressing what UVA did to her:

What does this say about an institution? A very corrupt and even criminal institution. Sullivan is just a paid staffer as this is still going on under her watch. They openly cover up rapes, so what JP Jones says about women is quite benign and yet very alarming as it shows the mindset. Female students are not only ridiculed for their mammary glands but they are clearly not safe on grounds!!!!

PTJ is a very intelligent, successful and articulate individual. In stunning contrast to the Hook readers commenting on this story. Now put down the Obama-phones and get back to work; those fries ain't gonna fry themselves!

Paul Tudor Jones is a misogynist. He comes from a lineage of KKK founders; namely, his grandfather. Paul Tudor Jones II is all that UVA does NOT represent. What a contradiction.

@Bobby - are you saying that Obama supporters don't work? Are you saying that human compassion should drive individuals in the USA? What is your point except that you are a PR plant that PTJ has hired because we all know what PTJ is really about?

oops - @ Bobby: are you saying that human compassion should NOT drive individuals in the USA?

Further, Bobby, what you seem to be saying is that PTJ's opinions are all that matters...because PTJ may be "intelligent, successful and articulate individual" makes him a success. Quite the contrary. PTJ is about PTJ and has no patience for the common middle and lower classes -- they are beneath him. PTJ is just like Calvin Jones, who believed that the African American's and women were beneath him. Remember, the apple does not fall far from the tree.

@Bobby: sorry for my mistake above; I was breastfeeding my newborn.

Can't you all see the depth and scope of the conspiracy before you? PTJ, owns the arena and contemplative center. His family founded the Klan and his wife is a kinky pretzel contortionist. Follow the money trail and dead bodies. The answer may lie with the dead Yogi master, because he knew too much about the nexus between the arena, contemplative center and the KKK. Folks this goes strait to the top. The truth is out there.

Go mulder go!

You forgot PTJ hiding behind the hedges every night before he drags passing female students into the bushes to have his way with them!

Oh weekend, are you now making gendered excuses for your inability to correctly express yourself? That's really precious. Is that what you'd tell PTJ when you fat-finger a seven-figure trade?

Again, Paul Tudor Jones II is a direct descendent of a founding member of the KKK. PTJ's comments regarding women are only a surface view of what he thinks of minorities...

@Bobby - I am merely emphasizing the point of this Hook article, and PTJ II's misogynistic views with regard to women traders. Who in their right mind would make such comments regarding women traders? Only an elitist like PTJ.

BTW: What's with all the white robes Paul T. Jones II is wearing at the "Contemplative Science's Building? Is this a bow to the KKK on behalf of his father? Where's his hat?

Paul T. Jones stole his wealth from the minority classes and slavery. He must be so proud.

Oh Weekend, this is just comedy gold. Don't ever stop being you.

Seriously, though, I'm just trolling your feminist bitterness. You say you're a new mom, hence probably stressed and tired, so this isn't very nice of me. I'm going to stop now. Have a nice week, and don't give yourself an aneurysm.

I guess all of you who are calling him a liar would gladly put your retirement money in the hands of a mother with a newborn child in this highly competitive, risky and fluid marketplace with no questions asked.

Doubt it.


How many male traders have actually lost hundreds of million/several billions for their companies?

Nick Leeson
Toshihide Iguchi
Yasuo Hamanaka
John Rusnak
Gianni Gray
David Bullen
Vince Ficarra
Luke Duffy
Chen Jiulin
Jerome Kerviel
Boris Picano-Nacci
Kweku Adoboli

They must have been watching porn at the time.

Not one woman!


Probably going through divorces then.

Experience with UVA and Power to truth....

If this guy had said men aren't worth crap if they are going through a nasty divorce or even if he had said they aren't worth crap during march madness nobody would have done anything but nod in agreement, but all the PC IDIOTS in this country are freaking out over the obvious statement that having a child "affects" women. Well Science is on his side, the hormones go beserk as the body lactates and recovers from the pregnancy etc etc etc. The Pshycologists are on his side as they treat many women for post partum depression . The cultural magazines are on his side as there are numerous articles about women who gave up great carreers because of the tug on motherhood. and finally common sense is on his side. I would imagine that if a woman went to court with the defense that her judgment in a car accident was affected because of all that is involved with a newborn and the stress, hormonal changes and lack of sleep contributed to her less than perfect decision that caused a car wreck the Prosocuter would plead it down to manslaughter because of provable facts in evidence. Can you imagine the Prosocuter trying to argue with a Doctor who has blood tests that prove hormone levels, Shrinks that have had 100s of women who had problems adjusting, and husbands who were willing to testify that their wives were borderline zombies for the first six months after the birth? What a joke.

The guy was not knocking women or saying they should be barred from the trading floor he was pointing ot that it is a difficult job and there are pitfalls. He blessed motherhood.

You think that make a man that agrees with his conclusion a neanderthal well what do you think of the probably 90% of mothers who agree with him?

How many mothers can say with a straight face that having a child didn't effect them and they could go right back to work without missing a beat? That is what he is talkng about. These hedge funds are handling Billions of dollars. One simple mistake can cost the funds tens of millions.

You are some P-whipped mommas boys out there

Just catching up here, and whoa, what a ride! Got some thoughts:
-- PTJ should feel "free" to say whatever his little brain thinks, no matter how offensive, without fear that a gang of profs' objections will force UVa admin to require his retraction or apology.
-- But PTJ should not be so stupid as to exercise this "right" absolutely, unless he wants to be made to look like a jackass.
-- Dean Z, and whoever above him authorized him to say it, should know better that to try to dictate a "no dissemination/attribytion" rule at a high-visibility symposium run by a public entity.
-- But isn't there an open question about whether there should be free public dissemination and attribution of every utterance that occurs at UVa, if that has a chilling effect on free and open discourse (think, for e.g., how you answer this question compared to how you might answer the questions of whether there should be surveillance cameras in downtown Cville, or whether the government should be able to monitor and record every statement made in every classroom, and symposium at UVa, and remember how such power was used against student groups in the 1960s)?
-- Not sure how alleged "suppression of faculty ideas" by deans or other administrators relates to this -- the story didn't cover that, to the extent it really even exists, and even Dean Z's attempt to restrict depiction of the synposium did not amount to any limitation on anyone's ideas, professors or normal people.
-- The provost's response was somewhat telling -- he certainly distanced himself from PTJ's statements, but he in no way suggested he didn't support the request that the statements at the symposium not be publicly disclosed or attributed.
--- And neither did the president.
--- So, as part of their revolutionary demands, can faculty be expected to endorse the notion that every statement made in all of their classrooms and other settings on campus 9like lunch, or office hours, or phones or computers, which are still all on and/or using public property) is open for recording by anyone who is technologically capable, and that all such statements are free to be attributed in the press? Having that result might not be the best way to advance open "academic freedom," in a world where privacy and confidentiality are all that keeps us from living our entire lives in front of each other.
--- Is there no truth to the adage, "discretion is the better part of valor"?


I think you're getting a good "railing" and Mr. Macho can't take it.

Because I respect women and because I think they deserve to be treated equally makes me a mama's boy. My wife, a highly educated and accomplished woman, decided to stay at home when we had children. Her decision, and only made after she had our first child.

The point I have made is there are women who can have kids and still be mentally focused and as competent as men to be traders. Personally, in my business I have met many women who are as competent if not more competent and reliable as the men in their work, even after giving birth. It's got nothing to do with gender but more to do with personality and character. Traders have to have certain traits and most burn out with age anyway. If gender is a handicap there are so many other handicaps that it boils down to the individual. You on the other hand are incapable of accepting this as a fact of life, as is your idol Johnny UVA frat boy. You both see women as damsels in distress who pine for a man to rail them, your words not mine.

Stop digging yourself in a bigger hole Marshall and stop taking that blue pill. You are what you are, a sad specimen of a by gone age.

Experience with UVA, your the one digging the hole... "gender" is not the handicap.... giving birth is a distraction that in the high flying world of finance could cost an elderly person half their retirement. That is not an insult to women. Anyone that thinks that statement applies to all women is an idiot. I have said that there can also be many distractions for men. I know there are some ice cold women out there who can drop a kid and keep moving. If you think that is a positive trait and wish to defend it keep digging.

Why don't you ask your wife if she feels whether the needs of her infant child caused her to feel any emotions that might have affected her decison making. Did she become overprotective for awhile until she was used to the newness of it? Or was she simply "IIsa" She-wolf of the SS and pulled out her riding crop and have you handle things for her?

and I do see most women as damsels in distress who need a good "railing" once in a while... Why does that bother you so much? Do you think women cheat on their husbands with woosyboys? We know what they are after because when they get caught their line is more often than not "it was just SEX. I Love you."

That blue pill has made as many women happy as it has men... not all women are "satisfied" with a cuckold.

You equate manhood to having sex with multiple women, preferably ones who are unfaithful to their "wooysboys". LOL. I did all that when I was young and then I grew up. You're still a frat boy who will never grow up. A real man knows how to respect and satisfy his partner.

Also a real man (with some class) doesn't humiliate his wife and daughters in public by making sexist comments, as did Mr. Jones. It's vulgar, crass and classless, something that would go right over your head. You're in good company Marshall.

His wife and daughter would have only been humiliated if they subscribed to your p-whipped view that women are supposed to be uncaring machines and can turn their emotions off at will and that anyone who thinks otherwise is a mysoginist.

I am sure they are quite comfortable with his take on things as are I would imagine most women are.

As for your acknowledgment that you used to rail women before you "grew up"... I guess then that you admit that you agree they oftentimes like it... So I guess it is your opinion that women grow out of that like you did and are quite content to be respected and satisfied by their partner. I would imagine though, that even Senior Citizens like to ride a roller coaster once in a while, even though the little tea cup ride can be "satisfying."

I admit to being crass and vulgar... but I don't think this guy was. He complimented motherhood and made the observation that it can effect real world outcomes. He did so at an informal forum and not a Commencement speech.
You can disagree and score some points with "mommy" but that doesn't make him the pig you claim him to be.

And I "equate manhood" with not letting some PC police control my thoughts or actions. The number of women I might bed is simpy the reward for not allowing myself to be emascualted in exchange for mediocre sex every other Sunday.

By the way... I never said I have affairs wth married women I said married women have affairs.

"His wife and daughter would have only been humiliated if they subscribed to your p-whipped view"

Wow! Marshall you've dug yourself into a sinkhole!

I say let's lock up all those focused make traders who destroyed the economy. And as to science being on PTJ side, science is dominated by white men too. As if science was objective...

P-whipped is one if the terms used by the rapist uva frat culture that produces these male traders. I wonder if Female traders are subject to the same sexual abuse as female soldiers in our focused armed services? I am sure the leaders of our military think the same way PTJ does.

Neanderthal, I would give my retirement fund to any new mother as long as she was good at her job.

As to who ever keeps defending zeithaml, his suppression was the issue. If you have to censor people then there is a problem. Jones' nut job ideas can be protected under the mantle if academic speech but if professors started out lectures with don't repeat anything I say or don't take notes it would be highly suspicious. His role in this, given last summers shenanigans is wrong. Uva needs more transparency not less unless you are Goodwin and you want to shut down FOIA.

Power to truth just how did the "focused" traders screw up the economy? Was it not inexperienced investors who bought more house than they could afford, bought new cars they couldn't affford and ran up credit card debt they couldn't afford and then didn't pay their bills? Traders are there to make money in all markets up and down and if you want to blame somebody blame the liberal education system for teaching liberal arts while neglecting the most basic rules of personal economics. Plenty of people saw it coming and got out or hunkered down. Plenty more didn't believe the hype and stil more relaized a designer label does not mean quality and shopped at target and costco all along.

As far as them asking people to not record and sensationalize the forum that was to PROMOTE honesty without fear of retribution. The politcal correctness has run amok and is not good for society because it makes people lie about their true feelings and beliefs and we get to the point now where if a guy says that it is his belief that a woman with a newborn loses focus in high pressure situations he is villified. If this were a scientific forum discusssing biotechnology and possible drugs vs holisitc apporaches to allow women to regain that focus and it were a female Doctor that said virtually the same thing there would have not even been a whimper except from a few testosterone driven women who would say that it doesn't apply to them. (and a few testosterone deficient men who follow orders)

P-whipped is a term used by men to describe men who allow their wives or girlfriend to turn into surrogate "mommies" and who relinquish decision making to them. It is a sad sight to see a grown man who works 45 hours a week have to consult his wife before he puts something in the grocery cart or buys a new drill.

And you can give your money to the mother of a newborn to invest but I don't think in the fast paced world of high risk hedge funds the odds would be in your favor. Just like the odds would not be in your favor if a male traders wife had a stroke and was home in bed with caregivers and he was up all night taking care of her. His love for his wife would most certainly affect his work.

Hey Bill!
Are you about 85 years old? Tossing off expressions circa 1980 like "PC police?"
Bill, I suggest you move outta Cville to a place like Alabama where you'd be surrounded by more like minded folks.

Big Dog, I notice you can criticisemy choice of phrasing but what about the substance?

Do you really think a majority of women who have had children can say that the tug of a child on their breast had no emotional effect on them that could affect their ability to make an extremely high pressure instaneous high consequence do or die decision involving tens of millions of dollarss of other peoples money? Most mothers of newborns forget where they left their car keys.

Just because the truth doesn't fit your fabricated notions doesn't mean the truth is not so.

@Big Dog

Great post!


As far as how did the traders screw up the economy:

As to "political correctness" this is just a term used by racists, sexists, and homophobes, etc., that means "here is a justification for our backlash to the 1950's when the White male reigned supreme and unquestioned. To be a man according to you means you have to be a testosterone fueled brute. I hear the Tailban are hiring. You can't scream fire in a public theatre and get away with it under free speech cloak. Maybe people's "true feelings" are what need to be corrected. We all knew what Charles Manson's true feelings were.

Not consulting with your wife or partner, yes that is heinous behavior. Do you really think your testicles give you some kind of omniscient authority? Again the Taliban are hiring.

So women are like stroke victims now? You seem to have come undone. Maybe its a testosterone back up into your brain. 99% of the wars, a our western civilization have been orchestrated by men making decisions without consulting women. Let's do an experiment. Give women control of the world for 50 years and let's see how the senseless conflict ends and how trading becomes more ethical and less cutthroat.

PW is an offensive term used by macho males who appear to be women haters.


Well stated.


Bill is what we call an "angry old white man," on the wrong side of history, left behind by world events, isolated, rigid in his thinking, unwilling to learn....

Would not expect much from Bill.

However, there is no such excuse for PTJ....

Power to truth, blaming the traders is like blaming a dog for stealing unattended steaks. They admit freely they are there for the money and will bend twist and if they can get away with it break every rule in the book. It is up to you to decide how much at risk you want to take with your money. The Government can only do so much because there needs to be liquididity. The fact remains that if people had not borrowed they would not have defaulted. Being duped is a personal problem.

You can bust on old white men all you want but you are doing it sitting at a computer invented by one, using the internet designed by them, across satelites designed by still more, all the while sitting in an air conditioned room that is cool because of them.

As far as having to consult your "partner" before tossing a can of spagettios into the cart, man or woman you are whipped. You think that that equates me with tyrannical taliban types and it does not and that is just your lame excuse to excuse your own wimpy behavior.

If you think women are not more backstabbing then men you are an ostrich.

My comparison to the stroke victim was simply that if a man had to think about taking care of someone he loves and whos very existance depended on his being there his judgement would most probably be clouded too. Your inability to understand that is not surprising.

One does not have to be "testosterone laden" to be ahead of you. One friggin drop would probably do it. If you want to surrender your testicles at the alter then go ahead, thats on you, but as much as women say that want a sensitive man all you "nice guys" seem to finish last.

Nobody likes a wimp and as for your name calling anyone who uses the term p-whipped being a racist or homophobe thats on you too. What do you call a gay guy who is p-wipped by his partner or a black guy p-whipped by his wife? If a woman is P-whipped. you just refer to the man as "controlling" but the behavior is the same. If she has to ask her husband if she can buy a new bath mat they both have issues.

I guess its a good thing Thomas Jefferson didn't ask Martha before he sent Lewis and Clark out or Henry Ford didn't ask mommy before he put tens of thousands of people on the assembly line. Women have had plenty of control in this world and the wars still occurred because people have different points of view and just like in this situation the people on the wrong side (YOU) think you have the right to oppress anothers point of view by vilifying him. So when you falsely claim oppression (he has the god given right to believe what he wants and make personal decisions in his life based on that) when you are doing the censoring and he retalitates (he has not but I am sure he could withold his generosity) you try and blame him for his THOUGHTS. Well you think he started the "war" by speaking his mind but the fact is that while he generalized about an entire group you attacked HIM.

Well he let it go as he should, but I feel that it is worthy of discussion because I happen to think that the reason we have so many bullies is because we have so many wimps who do not understand that most decisions do not need to be made by committee or through lenghty discussions. When I see a grown man trying to beg his wife to let him get a turkey pot pie because they are "3 for 5 dollars " and she tells him "no" and he begs some more, all that I can think of is what a waste of a decent vagina. The issue should not come up. How sad it is that men are so far gone that this even happens.

Many women complain that their husbands are stubborn, but way more complain that their husband has no spine and couldn't knock the bottom out of a wet lunchbag.

I wonder who the women will run to when something really bad happens.. the neanderthals or the woosyboys who can't fix a ham sandwich.

Bill Marshall, leaving aside all of the rest of your post for the people who enjoy debating for no reason, you are absolutely off the mark in your comments about the cause of the financial crisis. It had little or nothing to do with the amount of money borrowed on bad credit mortgages. Check out books like Michael Lewis's excellent "The Big Short" or others to understand what happened to our economy. The worst part is that our congress is either so complicit or so incompetent that we have taken no steps to prevent it happening again. Similar to the situation w "data collection" by the NSA, global finance has outstripped our lawmakers ability to understand the tiger they have by the tail. And add that to the fact that a good number don't even care to understand it as long as they can squeeze some cash and/or power out of the situation we are in very scary times indeed.

and now back to your regularly scheduled ineffective disagreeing.

Stew, I didn't blame it on mortgages I blamed it on debt. The government can be blamed for allowing and even encouraging easy money but in order for it to cause a problem people and busineses had to toss aside solid economic basics and take advantage of a manipulated marketplace. The numbers are also distorted as far as the massive amount of losses sustained by individuals. If someone had purchased a house in 2000 the house may have been artificaillly inflated to almost double its value, but that was all in fact artificial and today the house is still worth well more than they paid so they heve not really "lost" anything because the prices should have not escalated in the first place. The people that opened hallmark stores and Soccer Specitiy Stores and even resturants and overpriced spas did so with borrowed money and a lot of ignorance. The banks should not have given the loans on their face but that is between the banks and their stockholders. The crime was not the collapse it was the bailout. They should have let it crumble and let the people who scrimped and saved buy at the real bottom because they still had cash. That is supposed to be the reward for being frugal. They would have snatched up houses and buildings for a song, been able to offer lower rents accordingly and new busineses would have been opened because the risk reward ratio would be back in balance. As much as people complained that Wall Street caused this it was individuals who made poor choices with borrowed money. Building owners refinanced every cent of the equity in their properties and expected their tenants to cover the mortgage, well when joe the plumber realized he had bitten off more thna he could chew and had to cut back on spending all the fringe busineses lost income and could not pay thier rent and employees so the landlord went into default and the employees stopped spending causing the cascade effect. The Government made it WORSE by bailing everyone out. If banks had been forced to liquidate the foreclosed homes they woud have been gone three years ago and the people who bought them cheap would have spent money on paint wallpaper, appliances, plumbing etc etc and the economy would have recovered sooner and stronger.

We are heading for another crash because the stock market is being artificially inflated by super low interest rates and stocks bought on the margin, and companies with false artificailly high bottom lines because they are not investing money into infrastrucure and new employees (their current ones cannot be overworked forever) and claiming those savings are "profits" Well if you skip you annual vacation this year and keep the car for another 50k miles you might show a "profit" but not if you break down on the highway with the old car and get clipped by a ripoff station your savings vanish into thin air. And if your "life partner" gets frustrated because he/she didn't get his/her much needed vacation he/she might be less inclined to be a savvy shopper elsewhere. (Claiming this is good financial planning and thinking your financially better off because you have some cash in the bank is not always the truth. Too many Americans spending more than they earned caused unprecededted growth where there should have been none and the subsequent drop in that spending caused the recession. The inneffective government policies and massive wastes of money on unchecked projects and all of the new hidden taxes and regulations have prolonged it.

We have too many people with no or unmarketable skills and a government that would rather take care of their day to day needs (at great expense) than create an atmosphere where their skills they have can be utilized or giving them skills through agrgessive training or tax incentives for busineses to take on appentices to get them off the welfare rolls.

Would it not be better to pay an employer 300 a week to train someone than to give a person 300 a week to sit on the couch and wither? If your going to spend taxpayer money on the unemployeed at least get something for the money.

Even neanderthals understand that a maid at the hospital should not be driving an Escalade.

bm: you need to learn more about the manipulation of the derivatives market and the bundling and re-bundling of bad debt to get the whole picture. You are right about the bailout, but wrong about the cause. non of that "over borrowing" was the cause - that was the scapegoat laid out to take the heat off the (overwhelmingly male) people who caused the collapse. its not a sound bite issue, check it out.

Stew, I understand fully the effect of derivatives on the marketplace and blame the government for not watching closer.

It is all happening again...

But that being said.... the people who are underwater in their homes and who lost jobs selling only cheerleader uniforms and baseball caps from a retail outlet should have known better and when they stopped paying thier obligations that caused the cascade effect that shut it all down. If a guy owns his tow truck outright he needs maybe one tow a day to pay his insurance and feed his family. If he has 5 trucks on the road all with borrowed money he needs 5 tows a day from each truck just to cover the overhead. So if someone borrows money to do that and the guy who has a paid off truck undercuts him when the economy slows down and he defaults on his trucks and goes under how is that the governments or Wall streets fault? Businesses went under and people lost rhier job because consumers stopped consuming, not because leman brothers folded. GM was living off of borrowed money for decades and when the music stopped they got burned, but that was them overpaying for everything with easy money. It was simple irresponsibility and you can blame "white men" all you want but if they get the blame for that they need to get the credit for all the wealth they created for others too. There are still more millioniares than there were in 1999 even counting for inflation. Consumers overspent and had to deleverage and the busineses that were relying on that income got causght in the crossfire but they should have seen it coming as many did. Certainly some people got hurt who were just going to work everyday but if Wall Street had done everything as ignorant people feel they should there would be no money to loan except to those who pretty much don't need it or have proven track records for success which leaves a lot of people out of the free market.

The key is balance and proper planning before you borrow money for a business and to learn the basics of the true costs of borrowing. If people could learn the difference between "wants" and "needs" we would all be better off.

Sonia's looking Buffed, Beautiful, and Bitchin!!!

Cocky Wall Street traders with sharp focus like Jones sank the economy -- irretrievably, it now seems. They needed some older women -- who are better traders anyway -- to keep their instincts in check. Jones's remarks indicate he thinks with his stick far too often -- and his inherent bias against hiring women as traders is a sad commenary on our times. Hagerud's quote says most of it -- "As famous female macro trader Renée Haugerud, 58, mentioned in the New York Post, there have been many studies over the years showing that women outperform men at trading, but women are not given access to big money because of perceptions like those of Jones. " And Jones supported not only Helen Dragas but her push for online education -- on behalf of his clients, whose stock would rise along with their new online education contracts at UVA. Toast him on out of there, please .....