Goodbye, dredging? Brown, Huja, Szakos opt for mega-dam

Where are these UVA consumption forcast comming from? Has UVA published a demand analysis?

I just listened to both Ms Szakos and Mayor Norris on the Coy Barefoot show. Ms Szakos has no logic behind her decision, it was not based on the new information that she paid for with city resident dollars, it was clearly, from her comments, based on getting along with the county's position when they proclaimed they would not compromise.

This is sad for city residents and for ratepayers in general. This will be a far costlier plan with far more environmental damage. I, as a previous supporter, would never vote for her again and believe this is such a huge loss of city assets that a recall is in order.

How could she sign away so many millions of dollars of city owned reservoirs and dams without any promise of something in return ?
She did not even insist on dredging as part of the water supply plan.
She completely let the county have their way without any knowledge of what the city's financial obligations will be for the cost.

Perhaps her lack of business experience has led to her willingness to cave in so easily. We must do better next chance we get.

Last night's vote was an abnegation of fiduciary responsibility to city residents, on the part of Huja, Szakos and Brown, in my opinion.

This was a complete give away to the county with nothing required in return for city ratepayers, or to compensate city residents for the assets they own.

There is no longer any fiscal incentive to dredge, and no reason to conserve. Ms Szakos although mentioning the need for conservation and dredging, put nothing to tie it to building the 30 ft dam in the resolution. Once again the county whined and 3 city councilors caved in " we have to be nice and all get along " but at what cost ?

Listen to Dede Smith, Kevin Lynch, Mayor Norris and Hawes Spencer give you an on the scene account of what transpired and what it all means .

Spencer and Norris :
http://www.wina.com/play_window.php?audioType=Episode&audioId=5126135

I am from the County. I did NOT support the vote by the City Councilors last night. Their vote affected my taxes, water rate increases, development in the County, roads, our environment and our local culture. I am a long time resident of the County and I don't like the growth experienced in the last 10 years in the County.
"How about those of us who have been in the area for a few centuries?" Yeah, how about those of us who have been here for a long time? Those of us who lived and worked here and payed taxes here and sent our kids to schools here for more than 25 years. Don't we have any rights or say so in the Shared Vision for Community Development?!! The developers are creating the Vision for Albemarle growth. Some development is justified. But there has been too much development over the past 10 years!!

NancyDrew is right! "Looks like the big winners in this vote are the developers and the Nature Conservancy. The big loosers are everyone else, including the folks who live on the Moorman’s, or care about streamflows. They have signed a pact with the devil!" The problem with the Plan is that there is excessive development and UVA interests driving the Plan. Not sufficient citizen support to justify the vote last night.

"There isn’t enough money in China to justify pumping the 3rd largest river in Albemarle County 10 miles uphill for all the growth they can possibly squeeze in this area in the next 50 years." There isn't enough money in Albemarle to pay for a maintenance nightmare with no existing easements. Please promote stopping the pipeline project to stop the entire project. Litigation may be necessary.

The major issue is the cost of the overall project. The numbers show that dredging, conservation of resources, maintenance of existing systems, and by maintaining the Sugar Hollow Reservoir is less costly than buidling a new dam, or increasing the height of the existing dam by 30 feet. Building the pipeline will cost in excess of $65 million by the time easements are acquired. Easements and land acquistion will take years to acquire. My bet is that the pipeline alone will cost in the range of $90 million for 10 miles of construction.

I would like to thank Councilors Norris and Edwards. They are to be congratulated for continuing to support the interests of the people in Albemarle and Charlottesville. I am very disappointed in Councilors Szakos and Huja.

Voters in the County will remember in November!

i am deeply saddened by this vote baffled too
thank you to Mayor Norris and Vice Mayor Edwards for their clear thinking and balance

"Not Betty Mooney," your ridiculous argument about the "replacement trees" reminds me of those fools who say "At least with the Meadowcreek Parkway we'll finally get a nice new bike-ped path through McIntire Park." Well guess what: we could just have easily constructed that bike-ped path through the park WITHOUT building the road, and we would have saved tens of millions of dollars. And we could just as easily plant 200 acres of new trees at Buck Mountain WITHOUT destroying the Ragged Mountain Natural Area as Huja, Brown, Szakos, the County and the Nature Conservancy are about to do. If we want more trees, let's plant them. Let's not clear-cut a beautiful, mature forest and then try to make ourselves look good by planting a bunch of saplings elsewhere.

This will be their legacy. They destroyed 50,000 trees, and all the wildlife habitat that it includes at Ragged Mt., they destroyed the South Fork Reservoir to sedimentation. They turned over all the city owned infrastructure to the county , worth 100's of millions. They just gave it all away and got nothing in return . I hope they are happy today !

Turn on the spigots and let the water run and run and run...you've got all you could ever need.

So you are calling me spineless for not revealing my name but haven't revealed yours as well? Well played Old timer, well played indeed.

Lloyd and Mooney have made themselves part of the topic by constantly calling into questions the motives, intelligence and honesty of all those who don't agree with their views. This chorus of Cassandra's drown out all who might oppose them. Feeling, seemingly, that their voices must be heard above all others. The vitriol toward for those who voted for the 30 foot dam on this very page seems outstripped by the reality of the situation and it's true impacted.

The water tribe (ASAPians if you will) now sound like all those pampered movie stars and agents after Ricky Gervais's performance at the Golden Globes. It borders on religious furor for those who want dredging- of course, having someone post vengefully as Mother Nature is quite amusing.

As for you digging your heels on this issue, of that I never thought you would do otherwise, your faux neutrality aside.

The debate that has raged on about our
community water plan has had the unintended
effect of showcasing the people we elect to office,
and appoint to boards and commissions in the city
and county.WIth few exceptions it is not a shining
moment for many.
We elect these people......and we can show them to the exit.

@confused easily, are you surprised that there are illegalities going on in City Hall?
@Richard Lloyd, Leonard Sandridge determined the numbers using last week's consumption figures.
@Not Betty Mooney, you'd better bet your panties that something has occurred. Unfortunately you seem as though you can't see the forest for the trees. It will take 50 years for the new trees at Buck Mountain to reach anywhere near the size of the trees at Ragged Mountain. And, besides, how can doing something at Buck Mountain have any effect on Ragged Mountain? Do you think the birds will move over there? What about the rest of the flora and fauna? Thank God that guy trying to restore the wetlands destroyed by Saddam didn't think that moving them to Iran is mitigation.

Frank Fountain:

Re Charlottesville needing a ward system, I disagree both respectuflly and vigorously.

Although legally a "city," Charlottesville is really a small town of only ten square miles and a bit more than 40,000 residents. And at any given time, many of those residents are doing U.Va. touch-and-go landings. That's much too small a body politic to further divide by party affiliation. It's also much too small to further divide geographically. More issues of import than not affect the entire community, not just a discrete part of it.

Consider the consequences of such division:

For one, wards would inevitably differ in their residents' interest and participation. And that could result in a City Councilor who'd received very few votes and maybe even run unopposed casting votes of equal weight on City-wide matters with a Councilor who'd garnered hundreds of votes against vigorous challenge. Also, it would be all too easy for a ward to create a Councilor-for-Life -- hardly a healthy situation.

For another, wards could effectively ghettoize the City. Today, all sorts of people live in all sorts of City neighborhoods. If people of a particular political stripe were numerically dominant in a particular ward, however, people of a different persuasion would be effectively disenfranchised if they chose to live and invest there. Who would be their City Hall representative? What possible incentive would the candidate of the ward's majority have even to hear them out?

The fact is that many of the City Council decisions and/or actions that have been rightly criticized in recent years resulted directly from a de facto ward system hatched in City Hall in the 1990s. I refer to the completely artificial system of capital-N "Neighborhoods." The dead giveaway that they're not real, organic neighborhoods created by shared problems and perspectives is that no one isn't in one capital-N "Neighborhood" or another.

These "Neighborhoods," which in some cases actually divide real neighborhoods, serve Neighborhood Development Services as planning districts to which staff members are specifically assigned. But they also serve Councilors as a way to distance themselves from their responsibility to each and all of us. A citizen handbook issued by NDS a few years ago opened by stating (I'm paraphrasing here): Your contact with City government is through your neighborhood association. (Never mind that neighborhood associations are purely voluntary assemblies to which no one's membership can be required.)

Often, these artificial "Neighborhoods" are used to give an illusion of grassroots empowerment, as when a pot of money extracted from all City taxpayers is divided equally between "Neighborhoods" for projects to be chosen by "Neighborhood" residents -- a group version of "walking around money" paid out by ward bosses in the bad old days.

In notable cases, these artificial "Neighborhoods" have been used to dillute public participation in thoroughly pernicious ways, as when concerned real neighbors have been told they have no say in something planned for right across the street because it's not in their "Neighborhood."

Divide and conquer: It's done here every day. And a ward system would make matters infinitely worse.

Recall is a great idea. It would not take many signatures to put the issue before a judge, only 10% of the number cast in the last council election. That should be pretty easy to get.

Here's what the law says:

VA code 24.2-233. Removal of elected and certain appointed officers by courts.

Upon petition, a circuit court may remove from office any elected officer or officer who has been appointed to fill an elective office, residing within the jurisdiction of the court:

For neglect of duty, misuse of office, or incompetence in the performance of duties when that neglect of duty, misuse of office, or incompetence in the performance of duties has a material adverse effect upon the conduct of the office......

.....The petition must be signed by a number of registered voters who reside within the jurisdiction of the officer equal to ten percent of the total number of votes cast at the last election for the office that the officer holds.

Richard Lloyd your 3rd point from way back above:
"3 - the tax base of Martha Jefferson Hospital has gone to the county"

I was thinking when Martha Jefferson was sold that the Hook or a comment to to story was that M.J. never paid commercial real estate taxes to the City. (?) The new owners have to now since Martha Jefferson is only renting the building. So they City might actually increase commerical/residential tax base if this is true.

re: Martha Jefferson Hospital-they have never paid real estate taxes, as they are exempt as a hospital (private, non-profit).

The KEvin Lynch Dede Smith interview with Coy Barefoot is a good one. Wish Kevin was still on city council.

http://www.cvillepodcast.com/2011/01/19/charlottesville-right-now-kevin-...

Well done - thanks for the vote to end the laments of the 0 growthers.
It took courage to actually make a decision that moves this endless studies from thought to action.

People act like their water bills will bankrupt them, that is bogus. County ratepAyers will have higher bills and a better water supply. Let's move on

I think it's time City residents look for a recall process in the City charter. Then dissolve the RWSA.

"If they build that thing it will be the first item ever built in the history of Charlottesville that will be built for the future. I’m all for doing something that will last more than 50 years!"

The fact that the City has owned it's first resevior since the 20s shows how ignorant a tool you are.

ââ?¬Å?I don’t want any City residents,” says Mallek, ââ?¬Å?to feel like they’re paying for growth in the County.”

The pumping station I mentioned above is being enlarged to handle sewage coming from the county. City residents will be paying for that.

CookieJar, the pumping station is primarily necessary to carry the stormwater from the City which is entering the sanitary sewer system, denying County residents capacity in that pipeline which normally flows below capacity. Ever driven down McIntire Road after a thunderstorm??????????

"But on Tuesday, January 18, the same day that one Albemarle Supervisor alleged that dredging might unleash potentially damaging fumes" The only damaging fumes are coming from the politians mouths .Just shut the @#%k up and do your jobs .The people want more water do the right thing now before the cost skyrocket any higher.
Their all a bunch of wanna be dictators.

I thought Ken Boyd was a financial planner --why doesn't he get this ?
I think he believes if he just says enough times, our water plan will not raise your rates, people will believe him . Not me

Thank you Mr. LLoyd. I'd like him to look at what you published and then say, no my dear friends we will not raise your rates.

I wish people like you would run for office in the county. We need some officials that understand a budget.

Thank you Dave Norris, you will always be a hero for the citizens and one can only help the others don't carry thru with this and forfeit hundreds of millions of city assets, trees, reservoirs, dams and obligates us to so much debt.

TJ : MAN GO MUNCH SOME GRANOLA BARS WILL YA . TO LIVE PEOPLE NEED TWO THINGS FOOD AND WATER .LAST TIME I LOOKED NO RESTURANTS IN THIS BURG SERVED TREES .

The new CEO of the Nature Conservancy comes from Goldman
Sachs. Its Board of Directors members are mostly from
investment companies (including Goldman Sachs) and other businesses. Maybe two scientists. I no longer trust their
decisions.

Everybody relax:

Speaking for myself, although certainly not for "others," I never forget for a moment that we have Mayor Norris to thank for Ms. Szakos (and I doubt Mayor Norris ever forgets that either). But that does not mean that she could not have been beaten by a concerted single-shot effort on behalf of Bob Fenwick. A City voter casts his or her votes -- or single vote, if that's the voter's choice -- for individual candidates, not for a ticket.

I share people's disappointment with Kristin Szakos. But why all the attention on her and not Mr. Huja? There were several factual errors in the statement he read last night. If I understood him correctly, he said that UVa's water demand will double. No one has said that, even with their growth. (Right now they are using less water than they did in 1989, due to conservation measures.) He said that DEQ won't allow a dam of 13ft. Not true. One would hope he would at least get his facts straight.

And, he is up for reelection this spring.

Since coming back to town in 1995 I've seen
City spending double and:
Rebricking of Court Square but before that was finished:
Pavilion started, but before that was finished:
Bus station started but before that was finished:
New eco roof for City Hall but before that was finished:
Rebricking the whole mall again but before that was finished:
then the water plan, Meadow Creek Parkway plan, Jefferson School Plan, redo of all public housing plan at 100 million+.
Most of these plans got done or are wanting to be done with earmarks so tax payers else (the broke federal gov't) will pay for it. What runs into problems is when we have to pay for it ourselves, rather than earmarks. My understanding of the water plan is that there are no earmarks coming for it.

Now the Nature Conservancy can conduct their pseudo-scientific experiment and release more water into the Moorman's --compliments of City Council who just signed a blank check and gave over all the city owned infrastructure to let them try this. They asked for nothing in return.

No one knows for sure if it is good or bad for the fishies to super charge the Moorman's --this is a $142 million dollar experiment ( that is sure to cost the ratepayers more) once they pay for the cost overruns and debt of a huge engineering project like a new dam in an area of fractured rock area and a new pipeline without a route that must pump water 10 miles uphill --good luck Charlottesville --they got you this time . I'll add you to this list:

http://tncscandals.blogspot.com/

" the next major "growth market" for TNC acquisitions with potential consequences on water users " --see article below

"The Nature Conservancy turned heads earlier this year by announcing an ambitious plan to protect 10% of the world's total land. This appeared to be a strikingly ambitious land acquisition endeavor; in fact the largest real estate acquisition proposal in history. But with declining land prices and a worldwide credit crunch, the cash-rich Nature Conservancy has often the only available buyer to farmers and landowners who need to sell. It is not surprising that conservation land deals are moving forward at a record pace this year. Still, no one expected to find such a dramatic change in land conservation totals so quickly.

Now Mark Spalding, senior marine scientist with The Nature Conservancy announces that 13% of the world's land surface is now protected open space in a new book "The World's Protected Areas, examines the relationship between people and protected areas". Mr. Spalding says that the amount of protected land is now equivalent in size to the total amount of the world's croplands. It is not clear whether TNC underestimates the amount of land previously under conservation prior to announcing its goal or whether the land acquisition project has progressed beyond its stated goals.

In the past The Nature Conservancy has relied primarily on a strategy of purchasing open land from private landowners and selling the land back to local governments at higher prices. This strategy vaulted TNC the world's wealthiest organizations. More recently, TNC began promoting a conservation easement program that allows farmers and rural landowners to continue to own and use the land, but prevented future development. Purchasing easements is less expensive than purchasing land and may be better for preserving the stability of rural and agricultural communities.

No comment has be issued by The Nature Conservancy about how this recent announcement of 13% will affect its plans for future land acquisitions. It seems reasonable possible given the current worldwide real estate market that environmental groups like TNC could continue to acquire land at a rapid pace and possible boost the total amount of protected land to 15% to 20% of the earth's surface. It seems unlikely that attainment of the 10% goal would deter TNC from future land acquisitions.

Mr. Spalding points out that our waterways and oceans are not equally protected, with only 1/2 of one percent of the world's oceans under conservation easement. Freshwater protection is even lower. This might represent the next major "growth market" for TNC acquisitions with potential consequences on water users and fishing industries. Noting that this major announcement is made by a marine scientist lends credibility to my suspicion that TNC is gearing for an increase in oceanic and waterway ventures. The fact that Mr. Spalding's announcement was strategically published overseas in The Daily Telegraph rather than in more critical U.S. news sources (due to the current political debate on use of offshore oil reserves) also makes me believe that this book announcement is part of a larger strategic maneuver by TNC.
Posted by Harley D. Nomes at 5:45 AM 0 commen

Frank Fountain:

Fsscinating as it is to hear myself quoted to rebutt me, I detect no inconsistency. I don't disagree with you that we have a huge leadership problem in the City, one owed in large part to the far too narrow party-controlled pipeline to public position. (Talk about pumping uphill for miles.) I just disagree with you that breaking down our already small body politic into smaller separate and potentially competitive pieces would do anything but make matters worse.

I'm a City native descended from a great grandfather who arrived in 1859 to found a photography studio and another great grandfather who arrived in 1868 to work as a printer and who in the next year co-founded a newspaper (and who was also often elected recorder of town meetings regularly held in his day). As a poltically precocious child, I got up my first petition in 4th grade and had my first letter to the editor published in The Daily Progress when I was a high school junior. As a professional researcher, I have read almost every extant issue of every newspaper published in Charlottesville or Albemarle between 1825 and 1925, which includes a period when the City had a ward system. And I've closely watched the many and often dismaying changes that have taken place in my home town over the last half-century while also fighting myriad battles -- at first with the City as ally; later with the City as adversary -- in my Ridge Street neighborhood over the last 23 years. Between high school and Ridge Street, I had the opportunity to live and report publc affairs in, among other venues, Richmond, Washington, and New York. I still read at least half-a-dozen newspapers a day. So I feel some confidence in my perspective.

You, of course, are entitled to your opinion. I just hope it doesn't prevail.

ââ?¬Å?You sold out the city,” Ms. Smith is right. Time for these three councilors to go live in the county, because that's where they belong.

"The people want more water do the right thing now before the cost skyrocket any higher."

No, not all people want more water perse. They was the current structures to be maintained to continue providing the water they need.

The basic cost of living in Charlottesville is about to go through the roof. In addition to the outrageous costs of building an unnecessary damn, local utility users are soon going to be paying to increase the size of RWSA's pumping station in the Woolen MIlls neighborhood. That project is estimated to cost $27 million to $37 million.

http://www.c-ville.com/index.php?cat=141404064435450&ShowArticle_ID=1110...

Crawdaddy plan.

Ms Szakos will be held responsible along with Huja and Brown for needlessly killing tens of thousands of trees in the beautiful Ragged Mountain Natual Area. Where I once roamed with my fellow students. All based on a guess of how much water is needed in 50 years.

She may have alot more sleepless nights for her vote on the eve of my birthday, and if she plans on running again for council just when her term is ending and she is considering running again, in 2 years, she can go to Ragged Mountain and watch those dead trees being trucked out and the bombed out mountain left behind- creating a huge hole ((because who believes she will stop at 30 feet if the county wants more) what's another 12 feet and tens of thousands more trees and all the creatures that once nested there gone.

Never more, never more, to nest again.

All because she ( mark my words) guessed wrong.

@ CvilleVoter

For me I think it's just because she annoys me more. :D I've had personal dealings with her and find her to be incredibly ditzy/dingy, completely not qualified to be in that position, making decisions that effect an entire city and population of approx. 40,000 people. It really gets under my skin that she's a councilor, and that such massive power has been put in the hands of only five people, and that she's one of those five. Nobody's perfect, but the only councilor I think I truly respect is Holly Edwards.

Listen to the WINA interview (link above)where Dede Smith is shocked that councilors actually voted on something shows a profound misunderstanding of procedure. Ken Lynch doesn't bother to correct her- knowing there was nothing unusual, illegal, or against the rules. The real story is that the Norris plan is dead, the only support for it (other than the mayor) is Edwards-who has been said so little in public about the Norris plan it would be tough to prove she was there from review of the audio podcast.

Dede Smith says they can only build a 30 foot concrete dam, nope she's got it wrong again. They can build the earthen dam to that height as well (it is quite valid to point out they probably won't)- she leaves out that the earthen dam cost estimates have been lowered .

Kevin Lynch shows his arrogance saying he didn't think the Supervisors hadn't "properly articulated" to him in a private meeting why they want the earthen dam. Um Kevin you're not an elected official anymore and don't get a vote. I got to wonder why the Supervisor met with a city resident who didn't like their plan to begin with. They should get hazardous duty pay for that meeting. Lynch's crowning folly is to assert that because Norris has work really hard to understand and therefore we should all listen to him- thus dismissing official who disagrees with Ken and the Mayor as intellectually inferior or possibly corrupt.

Dede Smith justifies not building the dam by saying that in the future some glorious water saving technology will be invented that will render all this unnecessary. Of course it will Dede- BTW where is my jet pack or my flying car? She dismisses UVa's support of the earthen dam. According to her they comprise 11% of all the water used but the fact they want the County plan is dismissed out of hand.

The County, UVa and now a majority of City Council don't want the Norris plan-

Huja is up for re-election and with this vote he has abandon his duty to put city residents first and so good-by Mr. Huja.

And you said you were planting 200 saplings at Buck Mt., but we will remember you for cutting down a 100 year old forest and destroying Ragged Mt. Natural Area.

And handing over control of all the ciy's water infrastructure to the county and not dredging --becuase the longer they stall, and they will stall and stall until their new dam is built --the less likely we will ever see South Fork Reservoir dredged for water capacity . They will have no money left, nor need any more water --the motivation will be gone.

Mr. Huja you have killed 50,000 trees with one vote.

Folks. It's time to move on. There were experts on both sides of this issue, and your side didn't prevail. It happens. Next issue please!

Well, let’s see. First a democracy requires active, transparent participation. So I guess I can speak out. Especially as I do not hide behind a pseudo name like Fizz Fizz. Who are you and why do you hide?
Second, this self censorship for etiquette steams from a monarchy where the ruler would not tolerate indignant speech. Many of our forefathers seemed to take the liberty of disrupting that, for a cause. It was tried again in the suppression of the slaves. I think MLK had a way of dealing with that, peacefully.
Slander or name calling is definitely inappropriate. But speaking out for answers from public officials is worth the effort in my book. Especially when that official refuses to answer questions presented in public and private venues.
I have requested meetings with Ms. Szakos and she refuses to meet. For public officials to avoid answers to the public is reprehensible.
OH and I am the Treasurer of Advocates for a Sustainable Albemarle Population. That’s public record. I believe our elected officials deserve accurate fact based scientific information on the cost of population growth in economic, ecological and societal terms. Then they can make informed decisions. You may enjoy or research which can be found here:
http://www.asapnow.org/cpa-proposal.php
If you want to chat, call me. 434-409-0780.

Fizz, to be accurate the City has not decided whether to build a new dam or use the dam they have. In fact the majority has now insisted that the dam be NO Higher than 30 feet. Schnabel has not designed a 30 ft dam and phasing an earthen dam is impractical, so it is far less costly to build a 30 ft rise on the dam at Ragged Mt. and will do less environmental damage because it requires a smaller footprint.

But first they have to find the money and they've spent their pot, raised from rate increases on, first Gannett Fleming's design for a concrete dam, and now Schnabel's design and all the additional ITRT and related consultant expenses ( probably around 15 million by now), and so the pot is much smaller.

Also the county keeps saying they will pay for it all, but if the city does one thing right they will get that in writing. With a refund for all the design expenses as well, and compensation for all the land and assets they will lose. The city doesn't need any more water !

If the city doesn't get this ( at the very least ) Judy Mueller and Maurice Jones should be fired. The cost share is up to them.

It's not just a matter of trees--it's destruction of wildlife habitat. People should not be so cavalier. Planting trees does not make up for wholesale destruction of a forest. It's like giving birds the equivalent of a FEMA trailer.

The whole situation smells to high heaven of corruption. Can any lawyers reading this speak to whether there is potential for a lawsuit to stop this bad decision?

I suppose there is no hope. Humanity is a cancer on the earth.

Fizz, so why don't they use the money to dredge and repair the spillway at Ragged Mt. and have money to spare. Now that we're using 22% less water, than they predicted, we don't even need a new dam

And Dam projects are risky and fraught with delays and cost overruns - just ask Schnabel engineers overseeing the earthen dam in Stafford County.

http://www2.staffordcountysun.com/news/2010/oct/06/supervisors-tour-rock...

Meanwhile,

The growth study does not ignore any of those things you listed seperately or together, as the growth of both the city and the county have always been impacted by all the things you mentioned. In fact, in spite of the growth from 2002, the City itself has grown very little in population. It is the County that is growing.

Regardless, water usage has been in decline in spite of the growth, mainly because UVA has made so changes to become far more conservative. As have others. The facts are the facts, and no matter how hard you want to twist, the County's project was a laughing stock for a reason, just as was the Meadowcreek Parkway, and the 29N widening in the 1990's. But of course, that's what happens when you let a few business interests get involved, instead of letting the academics simply follow the facts.

Richard Lloyd you haven't bothered to explain ASAP pervasive influence in this folly and don't give me the "you don't post under your real name nonsense" it's a artificial standard you don't hold anyone who agrees with you on to. Do you demand TJ, Poe or old timers real names as well to make their words more meaningful to this discussion? I got a feeling that lots of ASAP people post here under all sorts of names (not their own).

I do love how you justify you ill mannered behavior by invoking rage against a monarchy- seriously? Just vote out the people you don't like or run yourself. If we lived in a monarchy your intolerance and boorish behavior would be treated with the lash or worse- not anything I would endorse to deal with you and others in your tribe's recent temper tantrums.

But thanks for helping confirm ASAP and it's hand in this attempt to limit growth by stall, study and misdirection.

To my dear old friend Betty, are you a member of ASAP as well?
Also if you have been to more meetings you would know that votes can be taken after a public hearing and there have been many public hearings on this subject. Votes themselves do not have to be scheduled-but feel free to make it seem underhanded or some other sort of conspiracy you and others seem so fond of hinting at.

What is the big deal about planting sapling at Buck Mt, they own the land. They could have done that any time they wanted to. What does a sapling cost ?

How can they compare saplings to the beautiful forest at Ragged Mt.
I thought Mr. Huja was the great tree protector, and don't they have a tree commission. Have they inventoried all the trees they own at Ragged Mt. all 900 acres. They couldn't plant enough trees in 100 years to equal all the trees they will kill with this dam.

Doesn't anyone care about my forest and my legacy in Charlottesville roaming in those woods. What kind of preservationists are you ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Tale_of_the_Ragged_Mountains

Charlottesville-Right Now thanks for the link to Hr Huja's interview on your radio spot yesterday. Sounds like the 3 stooges had an illegal meeting before City Council meeting and omitted Norris and Edwards.

Also Huja admitted that he was being advised on the interpertation of Scott Kudlas, DEQ, letter. I doubt he actually read it. Maintains that "staff" (not disclosing who) had taled with DEQ and was told that The Norris Plan could not be permitted. This is impossible as they have not done the analysis work.

And he has no idea about the UVA demand forcast as it relates to the Swartz Report on Demand.

So why is this guy on council? Somebody believes he was the best choice.

Dede Smith and Betty Mooney co-founded Advocates for a Sustainable water plan. It is an organization of city residents, mainly, who are concerned with the Community Water Projects. Both Ns Smith and Mooney are exceptionally bright, articulate individuals who have a solid understanding of the issues.

But I speak for myself and I do not speak for Ms. Mooney. She is very capable in communicating her thoughts.

That being said, it is interesting how much we agree.

Cville Eye:

Your reference to City plans for more "low-income housing in...Ridge/Fifeville" suggests that you're tuned in to the current Ridge-Cherry property situation -- a situation that continues to disimprove (as the Irish might say).

Just this week, those of us who're following what's afoot learned that the matter now set for Joint Public Hearing (i.e. a first and last opportunity for public comment) by City Council and Planning Commission on 8 February is the creation of just such a facility under pretence of making a few changes to the Southern Development PUD (William Taylor Plaza) approved by Council in 2009. (Council had approved in 2008 the sale of two City-owned parcels on Ridge Street to Southern Development -- two parcels without which the proposed mixed-use megalith could not be built.)

On 23 December we learned that SD, which listed its five Ridge-Cherry parcels (acquired by SD-creator Dr. Charles Hurt in 1999) for sale at $2.3 million immediately after WTP was approved, had found a buyer in Pinnacle Construction's William Park after relisting at $1.8 million last fall. Despite SD never having closed on the two crucial City-owned parcels, Mr. Park, styling himself "Contract Purchaser," applied for rezoning them along with the five parcels SD already holds. Originally set to be heard on 11 January, the matter was subsequently recheduled for 8 February because, quoth NDS, Mr. Park was "interested in additional changes."

The combined "changes" ââ?¬â??- which in fact constitute a new and different project -- now include:
~~built area of 120,000 square feet rather than 80,000-100,000 square feet (an increase of 20-50 percent)
~~project inventory of 80 residential units rather than 50 residential units (an increase of 60 percent and a factor that would increase traffic impact proportionally)
~~project placement that would intrude more deeply into the fragile site's most fragile zone
~~tree-preservation requirement that would allow more latitude for tree removal
~~building-standard requirement that would apply Earthcraft Certification guidelines rather than the much vaunted LEED Certification guidelines approved
~~project that would include the two City-owned parcels contracted to SD (but never closed on) without making the contract-required cash payment of $253,000 (So if Mr. Park's request is approved, the City would receive not one single cent for two prominently located parcels that belong not to the denizens of City Hall but to all City taxpayers.)

In 2009, David Neuman, U.Va. chief architect and non-voting member of Planning Commission, observed adroitly that Southern Development's William Taylor Plaza was essentially "City-sponsored." Given that there is now no market for any element of such a massive mixed-use mess -- a mess that perfectly exemplified the fake boom that is now bust -- WTP should be expiring quietly. Instead, it appears that Southern Development's very good friends on City Council are sponsoring its far too quiet reinvention as an in-town version of the William Park-AHIP joint project, Treesdale Park (Affordable Multifamily Rental Community), for which ground was recently broken on Rio Road.

boo, Szakos was an unknown before running for office. And as far as friends, I suspect some of her own friends didn't even vote for her. And she wasn't the only person who rode Norris' coattail into office. It was quite interesting what was going on behind closed doors at the local democratic party. Some of those who felt they were with the "good ole boys club" didn't even see it coming!

Even if one agrees with Brown, Huja, and Szakos's desire for a 30-foot dam (which I don't), it was a terrible decision from a negotiating point of view. Negotiation 101: Don't make a concession to the other party until that party agrees to make a concession to you. These three caved to the county; what motivation does the county now have to agree to a reasonable cost sharing agreement? Or to agree to dredge, much less help pay for it?

There are three seats open on council this spring. Let's support candidates who look after the interests of city residents and not those of the county or the Nature Conservancy.

horrible vote. I will never support those three for any public office. they are not there to represent uva or the county, they are supposed to represent the citizens of this city, the ones who are here now and who elected them and they have lost sight of that. they should all be ashamed.

1) Antoinette and others:

Some of you need to remember that Szakos was on the ticket in the first place thanks to Mayor Norris.

2) I wonder now if Hawes will be able to move on to another pet issue so that he may further damage his journalistic integrity/objectivity?

"Szakos doesn’t seem interested in doing the work involved in being a city councilorââ?¬â??lazy is the word I am looking for."
____

"Szakos was utterly clueless when asked how much additional supply her proposal would generate. She just said a 30 foot rise ââ?¬Å?felt” like a good number."
____

"And Szakos”Š? Incredibly disappointing. Many of her supporters have been let down by her namby-pamby attitude on this important issue, and I doubt she’d win another election based on what I’m hearing."
_____

I've had a few choice words to describe this person who has absolutely NO business being a council member, but if I posted them they would be "deleted by moderator," and besides, I think people here have adequately summed things up. She rode Dave Norris' coattails and used her connections with the Obama campaign to land a position she's completely unqualified for. (And I'm not qualified to be a councilor either...but you don't see me seeking out the position.) But people don't look at qualifications. They look for a familiar face. "Oh, I know her! I'll vote for her!" Yeah, well, doesn't mean the woman knows what she's doing or has an ounce of sense in her.

Does anyone think these three stooges are qualified to make a desision like this?

Richard Lloyd,

Most surprisingly in this is those so angry about limiting growth. There are plenty of places already filled with the growth they appear to want such as in Northern Virginia. Centerville looks great these days from growth.

The only people for growth aka sprawl in America are those who stand to personally profit off of it. Developers. Everyone else pretty much catches the downside.

People in Albemarle forget that growth usually means higher taxes.

"Not Betty Mooney"-- if there's 'splainin' to do, perhaps you'd care to enlighten us regarding the members of the Free Enterprise Forum's board and their interest in this issue. Applying your logic to them, is it fair to say that their voices represent nothing more than agenda and conflict of interest as well?

@NBM -The water tribe (ASAPians if you will) now sound like all those pampered movie stars and agents after Ricky Gervais’s performance at the Golden Globes.

-------------------------------------

I read and responded too fast. This here is another example of why Old Timer said what he/she said. this is purely ad-hominem nonsense that does not answer any of the questions about the pro-damers. I alos find it interesting that you are upset that they look at motives - as you do - and then you defacto admit that they are right in their assignation of your motives, because you get angry about possibly limiting growth. Why get angry if you aren't for growth and sprawl?

Rich Collins, Richard Lloyd ,Waldo Jaquith, Tom Olivier are members of the ASAP Board of Directors-

No, I'm not.

My, My you'll are having quite a time trying to guess who little old me is- Nope never been on the Schilling show but you probably wouldn't believe anything I might say about that. I'm just a serf who watched this water debate spiral out of control by the ASAPians and think they have an unchallenged ride for far too long. A citizen whose tired of listening to those who tell half the story and wail that the sky is falling if we don't listen to them. I truly believe the dredger are the vocal minority but are possessed of a missionary zeal that theirs is the only true solution. They talk of compromise but they really don't believe in.

I'm not mad about limited growth, I think it's fine- we already have that with a designated growth area and low growth rate. What I'm opposed to is the ASAPians ZERO growth strategy subverting normal means but now expressed by limiting the water supply.

Caesonia - beautiful name, just like the wife of Caligula, who went mad as a result of a love potion Caesonia administered to him. Have you been tampering with the ASAPians water perhaps? I'll let old timer speak for themselves if you don't mind-
Your misuse of "ad-hominem" is disappointing and incorrect.

Saddened why don't you address your own concerns of that board? If you have something to add go right ahead and enlighten us all. Just don't toss out the innuendo and walk away pretending something sinister has occurred.

Waldo you better get your name off their website then
http://www.asapnow.org/about-directors.php

"Waldo Jaquith is the web editor for UVa's Virginia Quarterly Review. He attended Western Albemarle High School and the Living Education Center for the Ecology and the Arts, and holds a degree from Virginia Tech. His interest in civics and community have led him to establish a series of related internet resources, including Richmond Sunlight and cvillenews.com. He was a 2005 fellow of the Sorensen Institute for Political Leadership, and lives in the Southwest Mountains of Stony Point with his wife."

Huja- sorry- )too late for me)

What does that have to do with this topic?

My crystal ball shows me that now that the city has given up control of their water infrastructure to the county, thanks to Huja, Szakos and Brown, they will have no control of water rates, their sewer costs will rise ( more water means more sewage) and they have lost an important tool to negotiate other matters as well. The low tax county will continue to have the upper hand on the city, forcing them to pay for their growth. Taxes will continue to rise in the city and fall in the county.

Never never never believe the county when they say --you will not have to pay for growth

Waldo - you have a libel claim

No I don't�I haven't been harmed in any way.

County Resident

That is an interesting comment.

I also currently live in the county. We will relocate soon.
Maybe you have heard me say that Charlottesville is becoming a tourist attraction with a low-cost housing project in back. Frankly I fear moving to the city as its tax base erodes and social services ratchet upward. But the county has similar dysfunctions. Like the current water plan.
Having worked in sizable and small businesses, I do not know of a business that needs huge quantities of water. Maybe there are some, but most want an affordable cost of living environment and a suitable trained workforce. And low taxes. The cost of water is the big determinant for business and families.
True, ConAgra used a lot of water, but they were years ago when pesticides contained heavy metals and DDT was common. The apples were washed and the water flushed into the streams. Modern businesses are far more efficient and enviornmental laws are now enforcable.
Comparing gallons per capita among cities is from a bygone day. The DEQ told me that they do not even keep such information because it is misleading and useless. Consider comparing Charlottesville to Lynchburg. They have much more industrialism, Ariva, even though both are college towns. The students go home but the factory workers do not. I do not know where Liz Palmer of ACSA gets her information but the DEQ could not give it to me.
The revenue sharing issue is from the past. The deal was made and signed. Now the County is crying about it. Seems they missed their computations concerning the cost of development to the tax payers. Oddly ASAP has recently commissioned a study on just that topic. It will be available publically to anyone including our elected officials making community decisions.
I was born here and returned to die. I would like to enjoy the next several decades. But the city/county battles need leadership. The current displeasures highlight the severity of the need. The next election is going to be pivotal. All this petty politics needs to STOP, the Red Herrings need to cease and professionalism needs to come to Charlottesville. It’s a special place with a unique heritage.

If someone wants to start the recall process, I will be glad to knock on doors and ask for signatures. I think it would be pretty easy to get enough after this vote, the questionable hiring of Maurice Jones, the give away to the YMCA and more. There have almost certainly been more secret meetings about the Meadowcreek Parkway and it is very likely the same thing will happen with another surprise vote approving it. It is time to act before it is too late to stop that.

Oh yes

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/James_Holley_recall,_Portsmouth,_V...

No, no earmarks, Sam.

Frank, I respectfully disagree. I think Charlottesville is too small a city to have wards. All city residents pay water rates and collectively own the dams and reservoirs and land, so it is a citywide and not a neighborhood issue. The loss of all these resources, and the cost to city residents is the problem for everyone who lives in the City .

This is a County plan using City resources and the 3 Councilors just gave everything to the County and got, or any assurance that City residents wouldn't see there water bills increase to pay for this very expensive plan.

Frank I do see your point. It is difficult to break the hold that "the party" has on Charlottesville. If we had elected Bob Fenwick we would see our water resources maintained, a far less costly plan, and we would dredge the South Fork first, instead of killing 60,000 city owned trees in a beautiful Natural Areaat Ragged Mt.

This vote appears to be a most pitiful collapse of our City Council in the face of an intransigent County Board of Supervisors.

One wonders if a recall campaign is feasible...???

They have made our homes safe and convenient for developers for years to come... Real estate and commercial interests may rejoice in the knowledge that they need no longer be restrained by concerns about water availability in doing whatever they wish to do to us.

We should remember this vote as we suffer from the traffic, crowding, noise and light pollution that our City Council has just facilitated.
Welcome to Northern Virginia....

Sam
That’s a good question. I assumed that Martha Jefferson paid real estate taxes along with collecting sales taxes. Generally I try to use facts I have researched, but that was an assumption.
Does anyone know the real story concerning Martha Jefferson Hospital taxes? I will research in the morning

Kristen Szakos, your City Councilor will be on Coy Barefoot Show, Charlottesville Right Now, at 4:08 TODAY.

You can call in and voice your opinion using phone number 434-977-1070.

Also

Dave Norris will be on during the second hour with Coy.

So there you have both sides of the recent vote. Don't miss the opportunity to let them know your position in memorable words.

If they build that thing it will be the first item ever built in the history of Charlottesville that will be built for the future. I'm all for doing something that will last more than 50 years! Everything else around here is outdated before it is even finished!

cookieJar:

Thanks for noticing the relatively small but highly indicative measure Councilors heard for first reading Tuesday night -- the sale of a prominently located 8,200-plus parcel of City property to Southern Development for a sweetheart-deal price of $40,000. I didn't tune in on that one because I know there's not the slightest chance that it will not be approved at the next meeting.

I have no problem with that particular parcel being bought by SD for an extension of Burnet Commons. The scandal is in the too low assessment and further lowered sale price -- justified by, would anyone believe, potential "cleanup costs." It's definitely a give-away.

I do have a huge problem, however, with the two City-owned parcels on Ridge Street being sold to SD to be immediately flipped for what we now know is nothing but a bailout for SD. The Ridge-Cherry property -- that is, the five parcels bought by Dr. Hurt in '99 and the two parcels Councilors voted to sell SD in '08 -- is in many respects a miniature Ragged Mountain Natural Area. It's a steep-sided wooded ravine bisected by an originally spring-fed creek that now carries massive amounts of storm runoff into a highly effective rain garden.

But if what's afoot at City Hall happens on February 8 -- when the public will have both a first and last chance to comment on it -- all of that will be sacrificed for a physically enlarged and environmentally dumbed down version of William Taylor Plaza. That project aleady exemplified perfectly the wretched excess of the boom that has gone so spectacularly bust. By all logic, WTP should now be dying a natural death, not being resuscitated by the City so that it can kill an irreplaceable natural asset.

The vote is most disappointing. Reporting it on Poe's birthday has some significance - nevermore - the ghost of Ragged Mtn may rise again.

Someone will pay dearly for this. Mark my words. No longer can Ya'll claim to be environmentally friendly. Good luck.

TO ALL Water water everywhere and not a drop to drink.

Dredge the res. Sell the silt sludge or whatever you want to call it to a landscaper/grape grower/wine maker/lama raiser/a fertilizer plant. To cut the cost of the project.The 50 year plan will be the same as it is today because of the anti-expandtion rules on building in his town.What theres 100k people in the county? In 50 years maybe 110k.That is unless the rich and famous folk find the fountain of youth and live (rule) forever, Looks like Mr . Poe has already found a way to return from the grave.Edgar share it with all of us will Ya?

I stay young by watching City Council on TV- look what I've learned

http://charlottesville.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=2&clip_id=609

It was clear at the meeting ( watch for yourself) that Brown was the leader of the pack and he has been trying to topple Norris's Plan and the courageous battle he fought for the ratepayers, ever since it became obvious that the plan was based on overblown costs of dredging the Reservoir.

The close ties of Brown to his friends at the Nature Conservancy blinded him to any factual data that was presented. The new data showed that there was a far less costly, less environmentally damaging water plan for our community . And that our water use had dropped so precipitously that we didn't need a new dam, only dredging. He could never see beyond his bond to Ridge Schyler's Nature Conservancy river restoration project, no matter what the cost to Charlottesville citizens.

Every Council meeting, where the water plan was discussed Brown would bring up his friends Jeff Werner, in the Piedmont Environmental Council and Ridge Schyler, formerly head lobbyist for the Nature Conservancy. Ridge Schyler is credited with the new dam/uphill pipeline project which the Nature Conservancy wanted as a model for their river restoration agenda. To do that they needed to take over the community water plan for their own purposes.

Brown was always against dredging for water supply and tried to undermine any attempts to do so. He and his friends at the Nature Conservancy were clearly the ones who used the DEQ letter, that Brian Wheeler foiaed, and published in the Daily Progress to get Huja to jump ship, by convincing him, ( with his close ties to UVA, it didn't take much convincing), that the DEQ would not permit the Norris PLan. A totally trumped up charge. And Huja ended up favoring the Nature Conservancy agenda over an affordable water plan as well.

Linda Seaman's motivation is unclear, but she and Kristin Szakos are compromisers and once the County said No Compromise, that the plan had to be done " their way " Szakos folded . Just shows you kids, if you put your foot down hard enough everyone will do what you want.

So the City residents lost big time and now we get a water plan that costs tens of millions more than the Norris Plan, that stores so much water we will never have to maintain any of the city owned dams and reservoirs, and allows us to never have to conserve water.

Good job Szako- Brown -Huja.

@Saddened

"People are focusing on Szakos because she’s such a gross disappointment to so many of her former supporters."
_____

What went through my mind is that maybe this can be a wake up call learning lesson for people. The writing was always on the wall as far as Szakos is concerned. *But her supporters failed to see what was right in front of their face.* Let it be a lesson to you. Next time, choose your elected officials a little more wisely. If they have no proven experience with anything political, if they seem ditzy and namby pamby, if they have no real discernable platform or goals, then open your eyes, *see* this and take mental notes, and then *don't vote for them.*

I haven't been very impressed with Norris, except on his stand on the water plan. He mainly has his pet projects like most councilors, and then tries to make everyone happy. On this though I think he really stood on the issue where it needed to be stood on.

If you listened to the podcast I think a very good point was made though. This wasn't rally what the County wanted. Outside of them getting control of Charlottesville's water supply - and they have wanted that for a long time so they can control the City.

Might be time to move on, after so long. I lived elsewhere I can live elsewhere again. I watched this stupidity of sprawl happen in NOVA, and I can't stand it. Never thought Albemarle would be so dumb, with all the agriculture and wealthy scions around. I guess I was wrong.

Charity Navigator rates the Sierra Club higher than
the Nature Conservancy. Its CEO makes a little over
$100K. The CEO of the Nature Conservancy makes almost
$500K.

the myopic chicken-littlism and hysterical ravings of those opposed to the dam is astounding: No straw-man is too desperate a device, no invented villain is too devious, no imagined motivation too far-fetched.

Take a deep breath and let it go.

Now we're hearing that this is about the county wanting to "control" the city? We're hearing that city residents get nothing out of this?

Neither of these examples of extreme hyperbole are true. City residents get the enactment of a plan to provide water well into the future. This is not a bad thing, believe it or not.

As for the county trying to "control" the city; really now.

Anyone that lived here through the drought of 2002, when we were 90 days from literally having to truck in water, should be pleased that such a disaster will not be repeated. Water is one of those things that you don't gamble with. Yes, we've cut down on the rate of consumption and yes, growth projections are merely projections. But so are conservation projections.

The fact is that water has to come from somewhere and, increasingly, it needs to be paid for. It is the 21st century and the supply of fresh water is not going to increase as time moves forward and the world population grows; quite the contrary.

The city council did the wise thing. It is good and sensible that the local area will have more than enough water for the foreseeable future. It is a responsible decision to ensure that the water is derived from local sources.

I'm sure there are plenty of Charlottesville residents that would be more than happy to have their water come from some poor locality that can't afford to protect its local ecosystem and is invisible to them. Anything to protect "their" environment is considered just.

Unfortunately for their arguments, the world is finite, trees are a renewable resource and water is not.

It's time to put down our childish things and face the fact that our existence on this planet is not a free ride.

Yes, some trees on ragged mountain will die. This is a small price to pay when compared the supply of water for our local community.

@ Meanwhile: You'd be the first to go.

so tell UVA, NGIC and all the other employers in the area to stop growing. Instead of blaming all the gov't officials and private interests that are anticipating and planning for future growth, blame the real culprits: Thomas Jefferson's crowning acheivement, the University of Virginia.

This city would not be on the map without UVA. UVA is growing and will continue to grow as long as it exists.

A wise decision is not one that says, "we have everything we need right now, let's just put our heads in the sand and hope things will be ok in the future" but rather plans for expected growth.

Sort of like how parents buy clothes that are a little loose and big for their children, knowing they'll grow into them? It's kind of like that.

It was high time the adults stepped in and made a responsible decision. Yes, the children amongst us don't like it and have discovered that not everything the adults do is perfect. But those minor flaws are not paramount enough to derail this sensible plan.

Meanwhile,

"This city would not be on the map without UVA. UVA is growing and will continue to grow as long as it exists."

Neither would Albemarle. y the way, UVA only represents 11% of the water usage, even with growth. NGIC is far far less. I don't know why you think NGIC will somehow grow explosively continuously, especially with Gates going to the chopping block. Cut off the contractors and you will get a great sucking sound.

Never forget in spite of growth that water usage is down substantially due to water conserving products.

The Adults were the ones who showed up to review the process. It was the spoiled children who were spoiled once again.

One day I keep hoping that Albemarle COunty will get tired of being the laughing stock of the state for stupid public projects country wide. Both the 29N widening and the Meadowcreek Parkway are already up there as examples of hat NOT to do.

Who builds anything for 50 years TJ? Anyone who wants to use resources properly and plan for a real future. The real TJ, Jefferson would laugh @ your myopic suggestion. Not all of this is built at once; it is phased in.

I applaud (meanwhile...)posts again and would point out the if any group is behind the water tribe it would be ASAP. ASAP's members (many of whom have moved here themselves) are telling us that we should put absolute controls on population. I'm talking an actual hard ceiling that Albemarle can't grow beyond- if you want to move in you will have to wait till someone else moves out or dies. They have viewed controlling the water supply as the best way to accomplish their goals.

Look at the members of ASAP and see how many are in the water tribe and the accolades. Jack Marshall sat on the water board and approved of a critically underfunded infrastructure that has required massive investment today. His mismanagement and negligence of that board is never taked about. Jack Marshall is president of ASAP. Rich Collins, Richard Lloyd ,Waldo Jaquith, Tom Olivier are members of the ASAP Board of Directors-

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that most of the rest of the water tribe were regular members of ASAP as well. This one group has tried to stop the dam by many different arguments but never utter the true one in public - when you choke off the water supply you can stop growth.

And in 50 years what will the need be, Not Betty Mooney? You seem soooo smart:) And the cost of maintaining pumping stations and pipelines and when Mother Nature strikes? remember Hurricane Camile anyone? The cost to the environment?

Did Ann Mallek say that the old trees at Ragged Mountain were "just hanging out" and those saplings should be planted when the 50,000 old trees were cut down? WOW !!
Why not just go ahead and plant the saplings? We all know planting a sapling cost a very small fraction of the cost of cutting the big old trees and hauling them away.

They have discussed the sewage plant and other sewage issues. In fact most of the capital budget in the next 5 years is to address those issues of sewage that have been neglected for the past years as has been mentioned

What I want to know is why hasn't any mentioned that they can build the new dam WITHOUT raising rates. They starting saving for it in 2003. All those who are lamenting the rate payer fail to ever mention that a good portion of the dam's cost has already been paid for by prudent planning

Oh I feel so special Not Betty Mooney has named me. Must mean I worry her/him a great deal.

It's true, Mr Lloyd did not call me out, and some others.

Here is what is also true:

Of all those who have taken organized public stands in this debate, the only ones with the spine to say who they are on The Hook, have been those on the side of dredging. You, Not Betty Mooney, and your brethren, have not.

I also note that the likes of Lloyd and Betty Mooney never shirk from sticking to the topic, and pointing to statistical evidence. That is also a problem for you and your brethren.

Those items alone were enough to make me dig in my heels and start pushing against the 2006 project.

Like so many others if I stated my true feelings they they would be deleted by the censor.

I think Brown is jealous of Norris because the Sept compromise wasn't his idea. Brown also stops thinking once he has selected a position because he doesn't want to be embarassed about being wrong as evidenced by his steadfast support for Frederick and the RSWA against van Der Linde.

Szakos is self righteous and only interested in her own social agenda. She doesn't even know the facts. She needs to spend less time baking cookies and criticizing citizens for using "gyped", stop worrying about cooperating with the county rather than representing the interests of those who elected her to whom she swore to serve, and start doing her home work.

Both Sakos and Huja are worried about upseting Ken Nix chairman of the City Democratic party who is a big dam advocate because they are worried they would lose his support in the next election.