Uncivil discourse: Protesters disrupt Yoo at Miller Center
John Yoo was in Charlottesville to explain the torture memos– and talk about his new book.PHOTO BY LISA PROVENCE
The Miller Center of Public Affairs has a long tradition of luring influential people to speak to engaged citizens, but this genteel practice degenerated on Friday, March 19, at an appearance by the lawyer who wrote the infamous "torture memos" that the Bush Administration used to justify waterboarding terrorist suspects.
While irate audience members shouted at the interrupters, the Center's programs director, George Gilliam, scolded disruptive protesters during the talk by University of California at Berkeley law professor John Yoo.
"I would like to thank George again for duplicating a Berkeley atmosphere," joshed Yoo, as the tension mounted.
Yoo has just written a book called Crisis and Command: A History of Executive Power from George Washington to George W. Bush. His theory is that those considered the best presidents are "people who have interpreted their Constitutional powers very broadly, while the worst presidents interpreted them very narrowly."
His worst-prez picks include James Buchanan, Franklin Pierce, and the local Father of the Constitution, James Madison. ("He allowed Congress to lead us into the War of 1812, perhaps the worst strategic blunder we ever made," explains Yoo.)
"War criminal," shouted a protester, who seemed less interested in Yoo's assessment of American presidents than by the torture memos.
Another demonstrator held up a "wanted" poster bearing Yoo's image, a stunt that so outraged one white-haired man that he slapped at the paper and ordered the holder to put it down.
The mayhem began even as Yoo began heading toward the podium, when a protester exhorted the audience gathered in the auditorium off Old Ivy Road to leave before they were "morally compromised."
"This is a time of great sadness for me," mourned Gilliam, who found himself repeatedly warning the disruptors that they would be removed if they continued.
"In seven years," said Gilliam, "we've had controversial speakers here before. We pride ourselves on offering simple, civil courtesies to our speakers."
The non-protesting audience applauded.
Gilliam himself was interrupted when he posed the first question to Yoo about his use of power while in the Justice Department.
Protest organizer David Swanson was first in line to ask questions, which Yoo gamely tried to answer, despite Swanson's instructions to answer yes or no. And when asked to sit down, Swanson shouted, "I am not going to sit down in a room with a war criminal," as he was hauled off by police.
As for the "enhanced interrogation techniques" that have made Yoo so controversial, he responded that the 9/11 attacks were not a "normal" war.
"First, we were talking about outside the United States," he specified, noting that the Bill of Rights would prohibit waterboarding in this country. He also said that as part of their training 20,000 American soldiers have undergone waterboarding with no lasting physical harm.
"Physical abuse–- we can't engage in physical abuse," he said to reporters after his talk. "That's where I draw the line."
He added, "No matter where we drew the line, people were going to be upset."
Yoo sees presidential power as fluctuating, especially in times of war. President Obama, for example, could not invoke executive powers to implement health care, says Yoo.
"The United States in war time has to do things that are unpleasant," says Yoo, "We drop bombs on cities."
The war on terror, he says, "was thrust on us."
Update: An afternoon protest followed the Miller Center event. See Jay Kuhlmann's photos in the Hook Gallery.
54 comments
Penelope,
Our founding fathers were liberals in their time. How lucky for you that they were liberals with wishes.
Discoduck,
Yes, war criminals target civilians. That's why Yoo qualifies; targeting American citizens and their civil liberties.
No one doubts that Bin Laden is a war criminal. The problem exists when we do the same thing.
You would all scream if it were you having your rights and lives taken away. Every one of you.
"We had a WAR CRIMINAL invited to speak in our town and this so called progressive town can’t even get outraged?"
War criminals are people who target civilians for death.
A hero is someone who stops the war criminals from committing such acts.
George Gilliam: "We here at the Miller Center take pride in an open exchange of ideas, sometimes conflicting, in the environment of a vigorus conversation, couched in civility."
Protesters: "Raaaaar! War Criminal!!!!"
Audience members: "Please sit down, we're trying to listen to the talk."
John Yoo: "It's okay. I'm happy to answer any and all questions, even from those who call me a criminal. But please wait until the question and answer portion."
Protesters: "Raaaaaar!"
Gilliam: "Please, follow the structure of the Miller Center's forum."
Yoo: "Yadda, yadda, yadda about presidential power for 30 seconds."
Protesters: "Raaaaaaar! War Criminal! Burn him! He's a witch!"
Gilliam: "We'll have plenty of time for debate."
Protesters: "Raaaaaar! Random paranoia/poetry"
Audience: "Please sit down so we can hear."
Protesters: "Why R U squashing my freedomz of speech?!?!1?"
Gilliam: "YOU'RE freedom of speech? This professor was asked to come here to talk about presidential power. And you're not letting HIM speak. We have a structure for doing things here, and we've reserved plenty of time for you to ask questions. Don't worry."
Protesters: "Raaaaaar! Filibuster!!!!"
Audience: "Uhhhh, what?"
ad infinitum
[fin]
Bob,
What a joke, to make a comparison. Yoo wasn't there to have 'discourse' he was there to try and sell his flimsy legal excuses which are pretty much being shown for the doggeral they are. Going into a townhall meeting to actually discuss something with your Rep is something else. You are there to find solutions to problems.
It wasn't lost on me that those interested in listening to Yoo were a bunch of old white haired guys with paunches.
Yeah, I am annoyed with Obama, but lets get real on this.
We should not use advanced techniques on simple prisoners unless we have very credible suspicions that they know something of an imminent danger or threat. Then bring on the tazers.
Old timer: are the rights you are refferring to the one that says that the government should leave you alone whenever possible and not force you to buy health insurance?
As soon as they stop extending "courtesy" to everyone.
If Hugo Chavez was extended the "courtesy", would you go?
I do commend great Americans for "American Activities" and wish we could all be great Americans.
It's are non-Bias, our freedom, that make U.S. great!
Lets keep it like that!
I think you're missing the point. I don't see anyone here defending those who attacked our country, the question posed --is torturing our enemies the way to win a war ?
Torture is an intrinsic evil, so debating whether it saved American lives is, at a most fundamental level, beside the point. Every major religious tradition and ethical system recognizes torture as evil regardless of motivation or outcome. It is entirely different, morally, than the brutal acts of killing that happen in combat during a just war. Yoo has shamed us all, as a nation, by enabling us to become torturers.
Having said that, I also think torture is illegal according to both domestic and international law, and bad - meaning ineffective - intelligence practice. Yoo should be disbarred, and tried as the criminal he is.
Free Abramoff!
Harry, I think you need to get a grip and realize that plenty of people against waterboarding have not only experienced war, they have fought in one. Lowering our leels to that of our enemies only gives them credence.
Yoo is the typical totalitarian jerk who has never experienced the horrors of war or torture and would be the first to squeal if ' the other party' started doing these things. Especially if it was to a member of his family.
On top of that, torture doesn't work.
"Yoo’s work MAY have saved many of our loved ones lives and bless the people who push the boundaries to keep us safe." How can one possibly know how many were motivated to become terrorists, because of the torture techniques used on their people by the United States ?
the protestors were merely following in the footsteps of the Republian Congressman from South Carolina and the Supreme Court Justice who chose to show their ass by reacting so rudely on Capitol Hill while our President recently spoke.
thisis the second time I posted a comment that didn't go through.
Mr. Yoo's work will make us less safe over time. We used to be a great nation ruled by law. Now we're just like China or Saudi Arabia - a country that will torture and kill without trial, without evidence, without dignity. In the history of our wars, Americans fought tirelessly to win with honor. Now we fight without goals, without honor, outside of the confines of the Geneva Convention. Is it more difficult to do things the right way? Undoubtedly. Should we do it anyway? Yes.
Mr. Yoo should be ashamed.
@Shepherd Johnson -- Honestly, no one cares what book he wrote. That was true regardless of whether you were in the room. Torture was going to be in the spotlight, regardless. That's the nature of the man.
But the way to win isn't to play to his well-constructed "nice guy" persona; it's to spend 10-15 minutes beforehand putting together a question that exposes his hypocrisy and lack of commitment to our Constitution. Remaining calm shows him and the world that you're in control of both yourself and the facts --- and that's how you really pwn him.
Penelope, you just made my day with that comment. cheers!
Bless the protesters!
To all of you who have never expereince WAR and being attacked by foreign WARriors, get a grip. It is WAR! We were attacked and waterboarding pales in comparison to real torture........
That's right it is George Bush's fault.
Is it time for the Ramalamadingdong admin to accept some responsibility for the Countries demise?
"Intentional cruelty is the one unforgivable thing"
By the way, Hook, the first time you mention him in this article, you call him John Woo. Umm, yeah, totally different person. :(
Wow! Such insight on this forum!
So I'm pretty mad at John Yoo too... (some of those detainees still have their toes and fingers), so I ambled over to Minor Hall to what was happening. It was quaint, sponsored by the Socialist Party (no kidding! see socialistparty-usa.org or http://sites.google.com/site/spcentralva/). Pretty lame really - about 15 kids under 12, 25 or so college students and then maybe 75 children over the age of 50 who never grew up. Usual nonsense about war criminals and stuff. Highlight of my day was when I sidled up to Cindy Sheehan and suggested "Why don't you pass the time by playing a little solitaire?", but she didn't get the Manchurian Candidate reference... probably because she's been sleeping in the park too long.
so we do this to our own? and then to others?
It's not physical becouse it's water?
Bush stinks
Get over it already - Ask the jerk who stated it wasn't torture and then didn't last 6 seconds. if you think it isn't torture, please let me know so I can use it on you. I am sure you would be happy to lie down on the steps of Monticello, and demonstrate to everyone how it is not torture.
The Bush administration did not waterboard people to save lives. They got no valuable intelligence from waterboarding or any other form of torture. They did it to get vengence.
The abortion analogy is classic right wing flame bait tommy rot. Let's try and change the story so we can pretend we are good people protecting America. Guess what?
My tata has a great saying: " A liberal is just a conservatvie who's had his rights violated."
One day your rights will be violated, and you will run to the very people you spit on and call liberal, and they will be so sick of you, they will cheer it on.
Matt, you make a good point, and at a time when the School Board in Texas is striving to declare the Christian heritage of our nation, I wonder how Christians could possibly defend the practice of waterboarding, or ever question whether it is torture or not. I challenge anyone to read this, and then describe this as anything other than cruel, inhumane treatment- one human being inflicted upon another. If we are to be called a Christian or religious people, aren't we better than this ?
"Interrogators were instructed to start pouring water right after a detainee exhaled, to ensure he inhaled water, not air, in his next breath. They could use their hands to "dam the runoff" and prevent water from spilling out of a detainee's mouth. They were allowed six separate 40-second "applications" of liquid in each two-hour session ââ?¬â?? and could dump water over a detainee's nose and mouth for a total of 12 minutes a day. Finally, to keep detainees alive even if they inhaled their own vomit during a session ââ?¬â?? a not-uncommon side effect of waterboarding ââ?¬â?? the prisoners were kept on a liquid diet. The agency recommended Ensure Plus. "
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/03/09/waterboarding_for_dummies
darth vader
"Caseonia, you are lying when you say that waterboarding did not yeild information that saved lives."
She is? Prove it. Or are you just shooting off your echo chamber thug
"If waterboearding is so bad then why did we not get more and why did it take 85 times to get someone to talk? I say it didn’t go far enoughmentality."
Fine. Prove it. Let us all do it to you, and you can tell us what is really going on when you call Caesonia a liar. I bet we can get you to say you were wrong, and it won't take 85 times.
"What manual do the terrorists use when they cut peoples heads off?"
They obviously have one, not to get information, but to get suckers like you to lower yourself to their level. They succeeded. You are like them. A terrorist.
Penelope -
"What is the difference between a rapist attempting to hold down a victim with a knife and a terrorist who knows how to stop a bomb but won’t tell you?"
Why would it be ok to stop one with physical force but not the other?"
Significant, for two reasons.
There is no question about the accuracy of what is happening with a rapist and their victim. If you see the rapist doing it, you might have to kill them to stop it, but you don't have to toture them.
With the terrorist, you are doing something to get information that has questionable values. Is the terrorist telling you the truth or not? What folks like you like to conveniently ignore is there are well developed manuals on how to most effectively what you need from people, and get accurate information. I will also remind you that plenty of evidence has surfaced demonstrating that NO terrorist attack was prevented by the Bush administration's use of torture - including waterboarding - and that no measurable intelligence was any value was gained that way. None. zilch. Zippo.
So, as cute and pretty as your little theory tries to be, the facts prove something different. As someone who has been put in harms way, I get tired of these quaint little analogies.
I am glad you came out into the open about it because it ties right in with your self-righteous attitude about drinking, and then calling people whiners simply because they disagree with you. I think I should pratice a good CIA tactic on you, tying you up and playing loud rock music day after night after day, and see if you think it's nothing to be upset about.
In 24 hours you'll be begging to stop it, and I will remind you that people live over night clubs, and that 75% of Americans live where shooting takes place all the time.
all twelve protesters...
Yeah! Because it shouldn’t be okay to abduct people, illegally torture them for years without due process, and not have to tell anybody about what we did to them. What kind of Nazis could be in favor of that! Thank all that is righteous for the ACLU! There is no more freedom in this country, but they keep trying anyway. Take a look at this: http://pltcldscsn.blogspot.com/2009/04/is-waterboarding-torture.html
"Another demonstrator held up a ââ?¬Å?wanted” poster bearing Yoo’s image, a stunt that so outraged one white-haired man that he slapped at the paper and ordered the holder to put it down."
Um, peacefully holding up a poster is a "stunt" but slapping it down is what? A form of violence and suppression of free expression. White hair is irrelevant and does not excuse this action.
There was a WAR CRIMINAL in Charlottesville sponsored by the Miller Center of Public Affairs who has never sponsored an anti-torture speaker. I'm so glad people were there to protest, I'm so sorry that I couldn't be and I'm ashamed that more people weren't there. We had a WAR CRIMINAL invited to speak in our town and this so called progressive town can't even get outraged? Let's go back to arguing over the YMCA and McIntire Park then, guess that's C'ville's version of being progressive...sad.....so sad for our country and for our university and our city.....
get some sleep...
Foolish liberal C-villians...
I don't really care if this loser got interrupted. Who needs civil discourse with a criminal? He wasn't asked for an opinion by the Bush administration, he was told what his opinion was and just ordered off to go write it. Anyone that tells you differently is lying. You can say anything you want about your opinion of waterboarding. What you CAN'T say is that it was fair for America to have Japanese soldiers HUNG after WWII for waterboarding OUR soldiers in Japan...where the Bill of Rights also does not apply..., but then say that we are allowed to waterboard people from other countries. Once we hung a single person for doing it to us, we were admitting that we should hang for doing it to anyone else.
Yoo's legal conclusions were incorrect; that's why his memos were rescinded. Yet he writes books, teaches, and goes around the country acting as if he was correct. He was and is wrong that the president can use torture. Torture is illegal; Yoo's opinions are incorrect.
It's clear that Yoo's and Cheney's torture policy, while providing an excellent recruitment tool for our enemies, gave no useful intelligence. However torture provided lies Cheney used to invade and occupy Iraq, an act of aggressive war also illegal under U.S. and international law. Yoo and Cheney both like to dispense with the law. We don't need to choose between Cheney and Yoo-- we can and should target them both. As a California taxpayer and alumna of UC Berkeley, I protest Yoo regularly, at his house, at the law school, and at his pubic appearances.
AN INTERROGATOR SPEAKS: I'm Still Tortured by What I Saw in Iraq
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR200811...
"I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans."
ââ?¬Å?I would like to thank George again for duplicating a Berkeley atmosphere,” joshed Yoo, as the tension mounted.
What does this mean?
What Happend at Berkeley?
and why wasn't there?
Naive individuals who believe they can right the world by spreading love and cheer. In some cases they are correct but in others more extreme measures need to be taken.
Yoo's work MAY have saved many of our loved ones lives and bless the people who push the boundaries to keep us safe.
He's just trying to get even richer by selling a book
" He also said that as part of their training 20,000 American soldiers have undergone waterboarding with no lasting physical harm."
Apparently there are those who disagree with Yoo's statement:
"The Navy SERE school in Brunswick, Maine, discontinued the use of waterboarding in its training curriculum after a SERE psychologist found via "empirical medical data ... elevated levels of cortisol in the brain stem caused by stress levels incurred during water boarding." Cortisol is a stress hormone released by the adrenal glands as part of the body's fight-or-flight mechanisms. Excess cortisol can lead to chronic stress, impaired cognitive abilities, thyroid problems, suppressed immune functioning, high blood pressure, and other health problems."
http://www.truthout.org/waterboarding-too-dangerous-internal-dod-memo-re...
Yoo is a devious, slippery fish and thrives when he can play off of disruptive, uncivil questioners. He wins by getting to play the nice guy with a sense of humor. Pity the protesters weren't smart enough to realize this.
This is a war, the stronger and more aggressive will win. that's the endgame. War criminal? George Bush? Torture? How about September 11. Why is justifying, defending, and personifying those who live solely to attack and inflict damage to OUR country, and OUR friends and neighbors, so popular?
The problem for me is that Yoo told the president what he wanted to hear ... he was just a puppet. Protesting Yoo is a waste of time.
Darth Vader (Cheney) is the real enemy of democracy.
It was/is the responsibility of the president to have the moral character to make the right decision. It is the presidents responsibility to uphold the Constitution and our values and to know good from bad council.
@Icculus
"Yoo is a devious, slippery fish and thrives when he can play off of disruptive, uncivil questioners. He wins by getting to play the nice guy with a sense of humor. Pity the protesters weren’t smart enough to realize this."
You are wrong, Icculus, that's me frame left in the second pic holding the camera. We pwned John Yoo today. He came to town and what are people tallking about? Torture. We won. We are just trying to keep this issue in the spotlight and it's working. People aren't talking about his dull book, they are talking about the 'torture memos'.
"Buddhism isn't cool"
I love the irony of how some people praise these protestors but criticize citizens who speak out at the town hall meetings of their own elected representatives. I believe Nancy Pelosi referred to town hall protesters as Nazis.
I was disappointed in the Bush administration. But the more I see of the current group, I think Obama makes Bush look like Winston Churchill.
waterboarding is not torture. Torture would be to pull his testicles off and put them in his mouth. So what if it raises his "cortisol" levels.. that is the entire point. Convice the SOB to give up info to save American lives. How high do you think the cortisol levels were on our boys as their heads were chopped off and they were dragged through the streets?
The world is a dangerous place and you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
Obama signed an "executive" order to say abortion would not be funded.. this is uncosntituional on its face because it contradicts the written law effectively giving him a "line item" veto which the supreme court ruled uncostituional.
It goes both ways.... Bush waterboaded terrists to save lives and Obama will make it so that if his daughters "make a mistake" (his words in the debates)the taxpayers can assist in disposing of it.
"How can one possibly know how many were motivated to become terrorists, because of the torture techniques used on their people by the United States ?"
We cannot and we cannot measure the number that MAY have been saved. You look at the picture from one angle and I look at it from another.
We can never put the depravity of the Bush administration behind us, but for a better understanding of the Middle East and what can be done there for the good of ALL please read about Greg Mortenson's work in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
I honor and thank the objectors; they have brought the attention of our town to the actions of a misguided man, who sullied the good name of our nation. The important topic here is torture and the road forward.
What is the difference between a rapist attempting to hold down a victim with a knife and a terrorist who knows how to stop a bomb but won't tell you?
Why would it be ok to stop one with physical force but not the other?
Some of you people live in fantasyland.
A liberal is not a conservative who had his rights violated a liberal is someone who is so dumb they think they can make life fair by wishing it so.
"You would all scream if it were you having your rights and lives taken away. Every one of you."
Of course I would but I am not a foreign terrorist planning a suicide bombing against the US or other country. We owe the perps nothing.
They should be tried by a military court and hanged for war crimes if found guilty. They should not be coddled by the American justice system and they should not be wrapped in the bill of rights. The Geneva Convention should only apply.
Caseonia, you are lying when you say that waterboarding did not yeild information that saved lives. The facts are against you. Just because you did not get a letter in the mail about the when and where that was prevented does not mean it was not gleaned.
If waterboearding is so bad then why did we not get more and why did it take 85 times to get someone to talk? I say it didn't go far enough.
What manual do the terrorists use when they cut peoples heads off?
when will UVA stop extending courtesy to gasbags, criminals and nazis like ed meese, george allen, and now john yoo? they are not intellectually stimulating, just offensive and unworthy of our attention and press. aren't there more constructive, engaged and less compromised individuals, like the late howard zinn, or non-political operatives we can invite to speak at UVA? george gilliam shouldn't allow for an open forum to be used to proliferate the ideologies of people like Yoo because they seek to destroy that very privileges for the rest of us through their actions. the "unitary executive" of whatever he and dick cheney's cabal of goons call giving dubbyah free-reign belongs in the trashbin of history along with the protocols of the elders of zion, holocaust deniers, manifest destiny, and torture memos.