Plan B denied: Emergency contraception comes under fire
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A new Pregnancy Centers radio ad urges women to reconsider Plan B.Courteney Stuart
It was late spring when Kim Simmons approached the Kmart pharmacy seeking the over-the-counter emergency contraceptive Plan B. In her 40s and the mother of a 22-year-old son, Simmons says she and her boyfriend practiced safe sex but had experienced a prior night condom failure that Simmons feared could put her health in jeopardy.
"If I become pregnant, it could kill me," says Simmons, citing an existing medical condition.
What began as mild embarrassment over the $40 purchase soon turned to anger as the pharmacist on duty refused to ring up her purchase.
"He said, 'I'm not going to sell it to you,'" Simmons recalls of pharmacist Kevin Wright, who, Simmons says, described himself as a "conscientious objector."
"He told me there were plenty of other stores I could get it," says Simmons, who left Kmart and purchased the drug across the street at Kroger. Months later, however, she remains outraged.
"He was trying to control my body," says Simmons. "I would never want to have an abortion, but by him denying me [Plan B], I could have been faced with that decision."
Citing corporate policy, Wright declined comment, but according to Illinois-based Kmart corporate spokesperson Kimberly Freely, Kmart– like other pharmacies– allows its pharmacists to decline the sales of any medications to which they object on moral or religious grounds as long as they direct the customer to a another pharmacist or employee in the store who can make the sale. Freely says that Virginia law requires that the customer be able to purchase a lawful product at the store if it's in stock.
"We're aware of the situation and have handled it," says Freely, declining to reveal if Wright faced any sanctions.
If Wright is pro-life, it may be understandable why he'd object to RU-486, a drug that aborts early pregnancies and which the FDA has associated with over 2,000 adverse events including a possible role in 14 deaths. But why would he object to Plan B, which aims to prevent pregnancy from occurring?
It turns out that Wright isn't the only one with objections. A new radio ad by the pro-life Pregnancy Centers of Central Virginia urges women who fear they may become pregnant after unprotected sex to forgo buying Plan B– at least until they've come in for a consultation with one of the Pregnancy Centers volunteer counselors.
One of the frequently stated goals of the Pregnancy Centers is preventing abortions, so why dissuade women from Plan B, which has been widely lauded for safety and efficacy at preventing pregnancy– but only if taken within 72 hours of unprotected intercourse?
One objection to Plan B, says Ron Schneider, the Centers' executive director, is the lack of physician oversight for what is essentially a high dose of the hormones found in traditional birth-control pills.
"You need a prescription to take birth control," says Schneider, "and this is 10 to 15 times the strength of birth control pills."
He also fears that some women may use Plan B far more frequently than the monthly maximum the label suggests, and he notes, "The same act that may get you pregnant may have exposed you to an STD."
Perhaps most importantly for pro-lifers, Schneider says, is that one way Plan B may work is by preventing the implantation of an already fertilized egg– past the point at which Schneider and other pro-lifers believe life has begun.
"Women need to understand this," he says.
Such objections to Plan B are "confusing" to Melissa Reed, vice president for Planned Parenthood Health Systems, which operates clinics in Charlottesville, Roanoke, and Blacksburg.
"Plan B does not end or hurt a pregnancy if it's already in process," says Reed, who, like many others in the medical community, define "conception" as occurring when a fertilized egg implants.
Reed sees the FDA's decision to allow Plan B to be sold over-the-counter as a "tremendous benefit," since the time it takes to get a doctor's appointment and obtain a prescription could push a woman past the 72-hour efficacy window. Schneider, however, stands by the Centers' position of cautioning women on the alleged risks of Plan B.
"We just want women to be able to make informed decisions," he says.
Simmons says that on her trip to Kmart, she was making an informed decision– and she objects to someone intervening.
"Women should know they may not want to come to Kmart," she says, "because someone's going to tell them what they can and cannot do with their bodies."
88 comments
The appropriate conscientious objection in this case is to get a different job. It's fine to hold opinions and beliefs and to act on them where appropriate. It's not ok to force those beliefs on someone else who is unwilling. Taking the money and responsibilities of the job of pharmacist is incompatible with refusing to sell legal medication. If you hold your beliefs that strongly, leave the job.
Show me the science behind the allegation that Plan B drugs prevent the implantation of a fertilized ovum. I have looked for it, and it doesn't exist. It's a hypothesis and has never been shown to actually happen. Based on this flimsy hypothesis a pharmacist (who ought to know better) denied medication to a woman who had a prescription for it? Utterly ridiculous.
@JanisJaquith - I think the more disturbing thing is that it's very likely the pharmacist does know better as regards the science. But he's perfectly comfortable imposing his beliefs on someone else. In this case, apparently, the believe that legal birth control isn't something one should get.
it is over the counter not prescription..
the pharmacist should ave directed the woman to another employee
kmart has corrected the error and is should not happen again.
this story is a month late and a dollar short...
get over it or buy one to keep in stock at home
How's about this lady getting her tubes tied...problem solved. She will never have to worry about a "failed" birth control method again.
2 things that shouldn't be regulated, A mans right to own guns and a woman's uterus.
@ Darnit
Good point. If getting pregnant is not so much a matter of inconvenience but rather life or death, then yeah....get those tubes tied!
I always get a kick out of the way the conversations on birth control quickly morph into "well, why doesn't she/didn't she just...?" Yes, there are all sort of choices any one person can make in their reproductive lives. The point is, it's *their* choice. It's what they have decided works for them, sexually and financially.
Step back and take a look at the scene. Birth control is legal. Abortion is legal. Emergency contraception is so legal you don't even have to have a prescription. Yet women have to do what amounts to a Slut Walk to the pharmacy counter to ask for the pill, pretty please. The *pharmacist* then gets to pass judgement, and decide whether his (or her) personal morality will allow him (or her) to hand over the goods. It's crazed.
*Awesome* comments, Heather!!!
I am pro life 100% but Heather your points are spot on - it's a choice that woman should be able to make with out judgement. I believe that if a man and woman are in a relationship it should be their choice not just the womans of course her opinion having more weight in the decision but she should be supported in that decision and not shamed by anyone for what she has the legal right to do. Again pro choice but also open to understanding things happen.
If he objects to any medication for any reason I think it is his moral obligation to advise his potential customers against its use. This story states "IF he is pro-life" so it sounds like that is a jump to a conclusion that may not be the truth. Perhaps he objects to the pill for medical reasons, and it could be possible that the same "condition" this lady has that made her scared of getting pregnant, concerned this man and caused him to urge her to see her dr. That is also a "jump," but one is as likely as the other.
If he objects to any medication for any reason, I think it is his moral obligation to find another line of work.
Does Kmart sell cigarettes?
just get her tubes tied? that isn't even a valid answer!! does anyone understand how indepth and painful of a surgery that is for a woman vs a man to just get "Snipped"? what if this woman doesn't have health insurance to cover the cost of the surgery and is just being a responsible human being about her reproductive health? not only that, but after approximately 7 years or so, getting your tubes tied isn't a 100% effective due to the potential for scar tissue to re-connect the tubes again. get your facts straight and who is this pharmacist to play god with anyone's life, his, hers, or any potential unborn baby???? CRAZY.
Good for this pharmacist. I am a woman and I am in support of what he did. He stood by his convictions and did not cave. There is a caring and moral reason behind this that has nothing to do with the forceful spirit behind trying to 'control the woman's body.' As a female, I am searching for better than the tired rhetoric of "anything goes." Let's stand for truth and build a culture of life.
Hawes: Let's go people! Our comments are down 22% since the Morgan Harrington story fell off the radar. We need more comments! McNair! Whaddya got for me?
Dave: Uhhh, well, I, errr, well... There is a new award for $10,000 being given away.
Hawes: Sweet patooty! We might have something here. What's it for?
Dave: Reducing energy use. It's a home makeover project.
Hawes: Dang it all to Milwaukee, that's BOOOOORING! I thought we had something big. What else we got? We NEED comments. Courteney?
Courteney: Ummm... abortion?
Hawes: JACK. and. POT!
@ Heather...Rock on with those comments. Bunch of backwoods, flat-earthers in here who think they have some moral right to control someone elses life and personal freedoms.
...and Hook Reader, being a woman doesn't give you any moral latitude to deny a womans LEGAL right to LEGAL medication. If you don't agree, fine, don't use it. I respect that equally.
"A new radio ad by the pro-life Pregnancy Centers of Central Virginia urges women who fear they may become pregnant after unprotected sex to forgo buying Plan B-- at least until they've come in for a consultation with one of the Pregnancy Centers volunteer counselors."
OH SUUUURE.....I'll wager anyone who does as these fetalmongers wished will find out they need to wait 72 hours for a "counseling appointment" and then be told that their "Dear counselor" will not tell them or advise them on how to get Plan B - OR birth control. But I WILL wager that they "advise" the woman to return if she is pregnant. This way they can rope her into a coerced adoption or harass her if she decides that she wants an abortion.
These "clinics" are not licensed medical centers. Few have ANY nurses on staff, let alone DOCTORS, or qualified sonogram technicians. YOu wouldn't go to the Meineke Man for advice on gardening, why would you go to one of these places if you want to avoid pregnancy?
Check this out: http://www.colsoncenter.org/the-center/columns/colson-files/16781-buried...
Folks, just because something is legal doesn't make it right!
@Chris, the pharmacist was right to stand firm in his beliefs, not allowing the woman to force him into doing something against his principles.
You've got to be kidding me, right? It really makes NO sense whatsoever for the woman to allow herself the possibility of becoming pregnant if it is a threat to her life!
@Hook Reader, right on to truth and life! :)
Want to save lives? Then apply the same policy of denying prescriptions on religious and moral grounds to the sale of guns.
What needs done is for the U. S. of A. to stop using our hard-earned tax dollars to violently end the lives of defenseless unborn babies both here and around the globe. That is NOT what those living in third world countries want! We do NOT know best for them! Unlike us, they afford dignity and value to all life, including the unborn! Instead, we need to ensure all children around the globe have as much clean water as they need and the proper food to ensure they not only survive but thrive!
@Ginny - could you clarify your statement and cite examples of how our country uses tax dollars to violently end the lives of defenseless unborn babies? Outside of our use of unmanned Predator drones firing missiles that often kill innocent men, women, and children.
And while you're at it, could you demonstrate how those living in third world countries afford dignity and value to all life?
@Albeboy...thanks for the laugh! Unfortunately, you're right.
If the pharmacist owned their own drug store and refused to sell the product it would be legal. No different than a tire store refusing to carry tires or valve stems or rims they think are bad for your car. You are free to go elswhere. The issue here was that this person worked for Kmart and violated their policies. So they should have to follow the rules.
Didn't Kmart apologise and retrain the employee?
He should be fired, period.
Ginny, just so there is no confusion, the drug the pharmacist in this article planned to dispense was Plan B, not RU 486. RU 486 induces miscarriage while Plan B does exactly what birth control does - it prevents pregnancy by delaying ovulation or preventing the implantation of a fertilized egg. If a pregnancy is already established, Plan B has no impact.
Hey Ginny, are you aware of the genocides taking place all over Africa? Maybe they don't afford the value to life that you think. Just food for thought.
@ Heather...Kudos to you. What a bunch of flat-earthers in here foisting their morals on women taking LEGAL medication that is available over-the-counter. You don't have to agree with it, but it is legal.
Funny how some will run the flag up the pole and applaud someone denying a womens right to choose but won't defend other "unworthy" right they don't deem valid ;)
Nobody denied this woman her rights. Any store can refuse service to anyone at anytime so long as it is not based on the civil rights act. If her boyfriend had come in to purchase it he would presumably been denied also so it is not gender bias.
Get over it and go elswhere.
Deleted by moderator.
@ Bill Marshall...You will deny anyones rights at anytime for anything, won't you? Can't stand near the road...no need for probable cause (at least as far as breathalyzers go), a woman can be denied an over-the-counter drug based on your (or someone elses) narrow moral standards...the list goes on and on.
I do understand that the pharmacist has rights. Sadly, you choose to defend only the rights of people that you agree with. It's a good thing our forefathers had a little longer view of rights and civil liberties. Close mindedness is dangerous, a very slippery slope and I bet you'll change your tune when it's your rights and liberties being impinged upon...or maybe you're so narrow minded you won't even notice? Either way, it's sad.
@ Frank Speaker... kind of off topic, and I wonder if you were asleep or just day dreaming when all this took place...
... but, on the current subject... if this lady was SO embarassed by the "slut walk" I wonder how she got the courage to contact the hook and have all her personal details spread out in print for all of us to read and comment on?
@Just Saying ...off topic ? asleep ? daydreaming? Perhaps those terms apply to yourself as the article is about a condom failure while Kim and her boyfriend of the time were practicing safe recreational sex . All this calmady could have been avoided by proper condom management by the couple and the pre purchase of the Plan B drug to be available when Plan A fails .
omgpaul
I am for EVERYONES rights to be respected and not violated which is why if this person owned their own pharmacy they would have the RIGHT to refuse to do business with this woman or anyone else who wanted this product. She is NOT protected by the constitution in this instance. Read the Constitution and the civil rights act. If her boyfriend had tried to purchase it he presumably would have been denied also.There is no legal protection.
Kmart policies were violated and corrected. No big deal. Would we be having this discussion if a 16 year old wanted to buy spray paint and they refused because they felt it may be used for graffiti? I am sure you would side with trhe kid. I side with the LAW. Business owners have rights too.
I would have sold her the stuff because I think it is fine for her to have it. I don't care. But it is much ado about nothing. She went across the street, kmart corrected its policies and we all move on.
I don't understand why the Hook chose to write an article which certainly makes Kmart look bad when Kmart stepped up and corrected the error. What should they do give the woman a lifetime supply? Large employers have employees do wrong things every single hour of every single day. They get complaints and deal with them as best as they can. This is just sensationalism. Its too bad they couldn't find someone who was molested by an uncle that this happened to so Rutherford could stick his nose in.
and "Just sayin" made a good point....
Frank... the moderator didn't appreciate your comments either.
I would like to thank Courteney Stuart and the Hook for including The Pregnancy Centers of Central Virginia in the above article. I do, however, want to include a few things that were mentioned in the interview that Ms. Stuart did not include in my comments. Since some of the comments to this article mention that there is no “science behind the allegation that Plan B drugs prevent the implantation of a fertilized ovum,” I would like to quote two sources that confirm that Plan B (the morning after pill) works is as an abortifacient, or causing an abortion. The first is from Barr Pharmaceutical, the developer and manufacturer of the drug, and they state;”The Plan B One Step, the over the counter version, works primarily by preventing ovulation, possibly preventing fertilization by altering tubal transport of sperm an/or egg and altering the endometrium, which may inhibit implantation.”
The other source I will quote is from The Mayo Clinic, which says, “depending on where you are in your menstrual cycle, the morning-after pill can (1) delay ovulation, (2) block fertilization, or (3) keep a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus.” In spite of what many pro-abortion organizations quote, the scientific fact is that pregnancy begins at the instant of fertilization, and not at the time of implantation. Every human embryologist and embryology text book worldwide states that the life of the new individual human being begins at fertilization. No human embryologist has ever described human life as "potential" human life.
We at The Pregnancy Centers of Central Virginia understand what a difficult decision it is for young women to make the decision to use birth control, the morning-after pill, or have an abortion. That is why we provide accurate information so they can make their own informed decision in a safe and non-judgmental environment. We just want them to know the risks and all of their choices.
Ron Schneider
Executive Director
The Pregnancy Centers of Central Virginia
"He said, 'I'm not going to sell it to you,'" Simmons recalls of pharmacist Kevin Wright, who, Simmons says, described himself as a "conscientious objector."
I am curious if he has refused to sell to everyone or just the people he judges unacceptable?
How long has the "conscientious objector" worked at Kmart? What other things does he refuse to sell? (condoms, birth control, viagra, jellies?)
How long has Kmart sold Plan B?
I find it surprising that someone else had not complained to Kmart management.(or have they?)
Inquiring minds want to know.
Ron....quit reaching.
I think K-Mart needs a new pharmacist if he won't sell the products they carry.
This article is a complete farce . A middle aged woman whining about her personal private sex life and products to promote it . The real problem here is that there are several Plan A alternatives and the couple dropped the ball on all of them .A little bit of effort would have made Plan B redundant . Having messed up on what is basically a personal hygene matter she and the writer want to take issue with an innocent moralistic constructive worker at K Mart . I know it is NOT APPRECIATED to hear and discuss other points of view .I gave some practical info on Plan A but it was NOT APPRECIATED . With the rise in deadly STD's in older person's perhaps there are more serious reasons to discuss the NOT APPRECIATED Plan A than a simple little pregnancy that can be easily made go away .
The woman in this article probably obtained her defective condoms and low-dose birth control pills from Planned Barrenhood. Why would they do that? Hmmm, because one of their goals is for every girl between the ages of 13-18 to go to them for three abortions during that age period. That's just one of their diabolical goals.
Yes, I admit, people all over the globe, men in particular, who do not live for Jesus, do not attribute value and dignity to human life. Many, of course, do attribute value to animal life, even when they don't to human life. The Rockefeller Foundation is behind MUCH of this disrespect. Margaret Sanger played a major role as well. Check out Angela Franks' informative book entitled Margaret Sanger's Eugenic Legacy: The Control of Female Fertility
http://www.angelafranks.com/
http://bound4life.com/blog/2011/07/20/obama-administration-says-america-...
http://www.breakpoint.org/tp-home/blog-archives/blog-archives/entry/4/17489
Good day!
@ Ginny..."The woman in this article probably obtained her defective condoms and low-dose birth control pills from Planned Barrenhood. Why would they do that? Hmmm, because one of their goals is for every girl between the ages of 13-18 to go to them for three abortions during that age period. That's just one of their diabolical goals".
This statement makes it very hard to take anything you say seriously...
@omgitspaul, check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykHhUUy5m6Q
Wow Ginny, a trailer for a low-budget propaganda-laden documentary on youtube. I'm sold. This country is so lucky to have neanderthals like you showing up to the polls every 4 years.
Ok, I guess because it's on youtube it must be true. Ginny, anyone with an agenda can make a documentary or post a youtube video. To say anything beyond that to you is just being mean.
@omgitspaul, this particular film was made by Martin Luther King, Jr's niece Alveda King. Not exactly some fly-by-night idiot! I, for one, bought her excellent truth-telling, enlightening movie! Engage your own brain to think for yourself, Paul! Research the hideous topic of the ruthless, violent, non-loving slaughtering of defenseless unborn babies made of flesh and blood in the image of God! MURDER IS WRONG ALWAYS!!!!!!!
Screaming doesn't make your point more valid Ginny.
@omg, remaining silent makes NO point!
@omg, I take back my last comment, actually remaining silent makes a strong point. In Dietrich Bonhoeffer's wise words, here it is, "Silence in the face of evil is evil itself. God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act."
I will never stop speaking and acting on the behalf of the unborn!
@Ginny, "planned barrenhood" Really? Are you serious? You sound foolish. Planned parenthood is about prevention, education, and reproductive health. Do you really think it is the diabolical scheme of planned parenthood to have young girls age 13-18 have an abortion. That is utterly ridiculous. You are making Christian people seem crazy!
planned parenthood is about making abortion as accepted by society as removing a wart.
@ Linda...It would seem the heat has robbed some of our contributors "crazy from the heat",at least I hope that's the case, lol.
@Linda Clarke, you, along with many in our nation, due to the ungodly agenda in public schools, the filth being pumped out of Hollywood, and the corruption on Wall Street and among politicians, are blatantly blind, sufficiently brainwashed and ignorant as to the true nature of PP. Former PP employees are speaking out about what truly goes on in that evil organization. I am a fool for Christ, and proud of it! Thanks for the compliment! I must be doing something right! :)
@Ron Schneider. Regarding the following incorrect quote:
"In spite of what many pro-abortion organizations quote, the scientific fact is that pregnancy begins at the instant of fertilization, and not at the time of implantation. Every human embryologist and embryology text book worldwide states that the life of the new individual human being begins at fertilization. No human embryologist has ever described human life as "potential" human life."
Actually, you are wrong, at the time of conception the inseminated ova is called a zygote. It then begins it's cellular division process during the first two weeks, after it reaches a certain point in cellular division, it is known as a blastocyst. Usually around the 3rd or 4th week of gestation, the blastocyst forms into the embryo. This three week process is called embryo development, but it is not an embryo at moment of conception. The embryo becomes a fetus at about the 10th week and at 21-23 weeks the baby cannot survive outside the womb without the assistance of a ventilator and surfactant and chances of survival at this point are still pretty slim, who are these embryologists that do not recognize that this is a "potential life". I contend that is most definitely is a potential life because there is very little potential the baby will survive on it's own outside the womb without some sort of assistance up until about 32 weeks.
Mr. Schneider your logic is flawed, you present two truths about Plan B and then your argument loses credibility when you try to suggest this is an abortion based on the fact that Plan B eliminates an embryo. The zygote is not an embryo until it divides and implants, period.
Women need to be clear on holding that aspirin between your knees and you will not become pregnant....................
they always have frowns.
A little more information please on whether our tax money has been used by the Pregnancy Centers to perpetuate misinformation. What happened to that $700,000 federal money they received for abstinence education? The actual programming for that was underwhelming. Is any of that money now being used to pay for Plan B ads that are misleading and manipulative?
@Just the facts. Thank you for the embryology lesson. Of course the fertilized egg is a zygote, and I never said it was an embryo. The science of embryology just happens to include the entire process of human development from conception (the zygote) until birth. I do not believe my logic is flawed. I just didn’t go into total detail as to how the newly formed fertilized egg becomes a zygote, where sperm and egg combine to form the one-celled zygote and then begin the splitting process that produces the blastocyst, which is what implants in uterine lining before becoming an embryo. There are also many stages between fertilization and the blastocyst, but for easier understanding we don’t need to name them all.
Here is the reality, however: We began our own human development in our mother’s womb as a union of sperm and ovum, which are genetically each a part of its owner (father and mother, respectively with 23 chromosomes each). Both sperm and ovum cease to exist at the moment of conception, merging to form a new entity, the zygote containing 46 chromosomes. To use the words “fertilized ovum” is a misnomer, because from this point forward until death, no new genetic information can be added to this unborn person. The new life is a unique individual human with its own unique genetic code, which is not its father’s or its mother’s. His or her genetic code is established at the moment of conception and determines the new person’s unique individual physical characteristics--eye color, hair color, bone structure, as well as all other attributes to make you the unique person that you are.
For an organism to be classified, as biologically alive it must fulfill the following four criteria: (1) metabolism, (2) growth, (3) reaction to stimuli, and (4) reproduction. Since the one celled zygote fulfills this criteria, it is biologically alive and is classified as a fully human life, separate from the female body and in addition is a unique human individual and is either male or female. Each of us share the same nature of all human beings, yet each one of us is unlike any other person that has ever been conceived before or any that will ever be conceived in the future, therefore we are fully human at conception, we are just in our earliest stages of life.
Please tell us all exactly when the human life does begin if not at conception, and then, when does it become fully human? Your logic is very “flawed” when you say that the fetus (and thank you for calling it a baby) is not fully human because it cannot live outside the womb without support. A newborn child cannot live outside the womb without intervention. The doctor or parent does not just pat the newborn on his or her behind and sent them out into the world and tell them to “have a good life!” That baby, even through its pre-teen years cannot exist in the world without intervention. Some parents out there might even say their children under 18 would have a hard time surviving totally on their own. The zygote, the blastocyst, the embryo, the fetus, the baby, the toddler, the pre-teen, the teen, the young adult and up through old age and the time of death are the stages each human, including you and me, go through in their lifetime. Our life timeline began at conception and ends at death. We are fully human at every stage of life in between.
Ron Schneider
...and it's ON!
...and it's ON! Give 'em room people!
oops, double tap
To Ron and the 'life begins at conception' folks, what is your take on identical twins?
@Respect Life,
The answer is no. I would like to invite you to call me and schedule a time to come into our center to discuss the actual results of our abstinence program.
Delilah,
The split into two zygotes at time of conception, each developing independently of one another to form a two identical human beings because they both share the same DNA from both mother and father. God has provided a double blessing!
Ron
@Ron, bravo! Thank you for your willingness to share your God-given knowledge, caring and vulnerability at this progressive newspaper. Another point concerning the growth of humans, our frontal lobes do not complete their development until age 25! We ALWAYS need our wise, experienced parents, as well as other exemplary adults to be active in our lives as mentors and advisers!
Ron, the fertilized egg doesn't split until sometimes up to 13 days after fertilization.
Delilah,
You are correct in that the split happens after fertilization. The splitting into two different individuals can happen any time from the second through the 13th day. If it happens after the 13th day the chance of having conjoined twins is very likely. Each and every one of these zygotes, whether identical twins (monozygotic, and coming from one sperm fertilizing one egg) or fraternal twins (dizygotic, coming from two sperm fertilizing two mature eggs), or any other form of multiple zygotes going through the gestational process in a single womb simultaneously, is a fully human life. What is the point you are trying to make through this dialogue?
Knowledge isn't god-given. It has to be learned and sought on one's own.
Check out: The History of Eugenics in America. It's exceedingly enlightening and disturbing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASrFufnMNDg
Ron, my point is that you claim that the fertilized egg "a unique individual human" so I am just wondering how you reconcile the case of identical twins. I have them so I am fully aware of how they develop. In the case of my twins, we know from their configuration in utero that the fertilized egg did not split until about 8 days after fertilization. Calls into question your "unique individual human" argument. But I would guess that you are not a physician.
@delilah, you're kidding me, right - "the life that begins at conception folks?" What type of question is that? It doesn't take a genius to realize that, and science proves it. I implore you to be more civil in how you relate to Ron. He deserves respect. I hope all goes well with your twins. I have sisters that are twins, as well as sons that are twins. They are a fun blessing! Ready-made playmates!
Delilah,
Your question is a good one now that I understand what you were going with it. Thank you for your patience. No, I am not a physician. Nearly 50 years ago I graduated from college with a double major in biology and chemistry, and had two years of graduate school focusing on Human Anatomy.
I did not follow my educational background when I entered the work place, but joined IBM in the 60’s. So no, I am not even an expert at this stage in my life. But I still read and try to keep up with scientific advances. Because of that, I know that there are many things that cannot be explained by science only. When finishing college, I was not a religious person - - - and in fact considered myself as an “enlightened agnostic.” When Roe v Wade was made law, and shortly after Doe v Bolton came along allowing abortion throughout the entire nine months of pregnancy, I knew that abortion was wrong. Not because of my “religious” beliefs, but because I had had enough of a science background to know that life begins at conception, not some other arbitrary point along the human life continuum. I came to Christ and became a Christian much later in my life, but that’s another story.
I do not believe that science can adequately explain the “why” identical twins come from that first zygote that in early in development splits to start the process of the development of another wholly different and unique individual. Science is good at observing the “how” but cannot always answer the “why” question in many areas of science. Identical twinning happens to be one of those times, I believe. I do know that that the original zygote was fully human, and for some reason split to create a second embryo that was also fully human. That single-cell zygote was programmed somehow to create a second life. As to the uniqueness, I am sure that you can attest that each of your identical twins are extremely unique and certainly different. They are not truly “identical” even though their DNA make-up is nearly identical. I can also say confidently that they are both fully human.
May God Bless you and your very special family, Delilah.
Ron
How wonderful to see all the white male Xian trolls out in force about what rights a woman has to her body. Especially HarryD.
"Women need to be clear on holding that aspirin between your knees and you will not become pregnant."
It takes two to tango Harry. Pants have zippers. If the male kept it zipped up there wouldn't be any need for a woman to worry about pregnancy either, now would there? The best part is the more fervarent the males are about how a woman should handle their bodies, the more skeletons you find in their closets.
So the woman can just go to another store? really? And what happens when that pharmacist is allowed to deny her legally purchasable products?
You people need to move to Saudi Arabia, so you can keep women in the place you want them. You'll fit right in.
so old timer.. you advocate that a person who owns their own business should be legally forced to sell something they do not want to sell.
Does that include guns? A gun can be a "life or death" issue too.
You can't have it both ways.
You are also insulting women by stating that they have no power. They are over half of college graduates.
They also control half the money and 100% of the vaginas. Thats a powerful combination most anyplace.
@ old timer...good for you, thanks for pointing out the disrespect. I'm embarrassed to have to share my gender with the neanderthals. Club and a cave, huh boys?
There are all kinds of personal reasons why a Pharmacist could disapprove of many drugs prescribed by doctors. Among these would be the personal belief that anti-depressants are pernicious, or that Aderral (an amphetamine) is an inappropriate drug to give teenagers for ADHD. Or he/she could believe sleeping pills are over-used, that antibiotics prescribed for simple colds simply exacerbate the problems of antibiotic resistant organisms. Or maybe the pharmacist is a woman who thinks "boner pills" for old guys is against God's will...Contraceptives are only one of many drugs a pharmacist could personally disapprove of, but the pharmacist's job for which the state licensed him/her is to execute the physician's instructions and not to countermand them. If your Mother were dying of cancer and a hospice nurse who disapproved of narcotics refused to administer Morphine, should that nurse remain employed or licensed for that matter?
That pharmacist should be dismissed his job and have his license suspended. Unfortunately there has been a recent trend in state governments to pass laws shielding such people from appropriate disciplinary sanctions. While we' re polluting centuries worth of professional standards and ethics keeping regulations, maybe we should write some laws whereby lawyers representing accused persons they consider "evil" should be free from sanctions should they consider it "answering to a higher power" if they decide to collude with the prosecution by slipping them incriminating information to which they have become privy.
Bad, cowardly, craven, K-Mart. Knowing this I'll drive out of my way to avoid ever doing business with any of their stores.
@ Angel Eyes
"Bad, cowardly, craven, K-Mart."
Kmart will probably eventually go under regardless of whether you boycott them, but even if they don't I doubt they're going to miss your business. But rock on wich yo baaaad self! (eye roll.)
Tim,
Nice try Tim, but I have a feeling that you would be one of the fist in line to squawk over not buying your gun.The way you are trying to twist everything I said, by claiming I said things I never said, defines you as one of the Xian trolls who so desperately wants to sound self righteous.
I never said a store owner should be forced to stock something, but that's not what is going on here. A legal product was available for purchase in the store, and a single person took it upon themselves to deny a lawful purchase based on their own personal ideological beliefs, in this case religious ones. I think that does tread the line of a Constitutional violation, not only from the Civil Rights Act, but also on a separation of Church and State. The State has decided this is a legal product. That is the law. It is also the law that if a product is in the store in stock,you cannot deny a sale. This individual decided that they have the right to defy the law based on religion.You do not have that right.
I also never said women have no power. What I see are right wing trolls angry that women are gaining power, wanting to exercise power over their bodies, and quite happy to cut off their noses to spite their face to keep minorities or women from getting an education unless it is a religious madras.
I suggest you Xian fundamentalists all move to the UAE or Saudi Arabia so you don't have worry about gays or contraception or abortions anymore in the public eye. But just be aware that women can and do get extremely well educated, even if they wear a burka, and they tend to be in very wealthy families with lots of power. At least you can live the life of a victim that you want to there.
bad argument everyone. Just what is copulation for? Come on big boys, tell me what is the purpose? Get the answer correct and then you can move on to the more adult discussion about right to life, right to choose, tc......come on, waiting............
bad argument everyone. Just what is copulation for? Come on big boys, tell me what is the purpose? Get the answer correct and then you can move on to the more adult discussion about right to life, right to choose, etc......come on, waiting............
Old timer, your ignorance of church and state separation is pathetic, You are presuming that she was denied it on religois grounds. Contientious objection is not religoius grounds. Ask an athiest who does not want to go to war.
This person worked at kmart and violated kmarts policies. Kmart addressed the issue apologized and moved on. That was not good enough for this person and she squalled.
If a person owns their own business they can deny service to anyone and don't even need to give a reason. If a patttern is established then the gov't can stick there nose in to see if there is a civil rights violation. This was not the case here. This person would have refused to sell to anyone. black white male female gay straight. whatever. There was no discrimination.
If a person owns a store and a guy comes in with a sheet and wants to buy a cross and some matches, or a bunch of guys come in and are looking for baseball bats using racial or gay slurs then why can't a business owner decide he does not want to sell to them?
Why is that not liberty that should be painted with the same brush?
"On some positions, Cowardice asks the question, “Is it safe?” Expediency asks
the question, “Is it politic?” And Vanity comes along and asks the question, “Is
it popular?” But conscience asks the question “Is it right?” And there comes a
time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular,
but he must do it because Conscience tells him it is right."
–Martin Luther King, Jr.
The pharmacist was not legally obligated to sell it, point ends there. Are you kidding me, he should be removed from his job and liscense suspended?! He directed her to another place that she could buy the pill and she got it, END OF STORY. If people don't want to deal with the hassle of buying Plan B either don't go to KMart or, oh lemme think, try another form of BIRTH control and stop using Plan B fo that. And if Planned Parenthood was even slighlty forthcoming in the risks involved with taking Plan B, it wouldn't continue to rise in being bought. I bet most of you don't know what the pill does to a woman's body. Birth control is hard enough on a body, Plan B is even WORSE. As far as the woman goes, "it could kill me if I get pregnant".....yes then please continue to practice unsafe sex with that risk, hey, at least you have plan B to fall back on right? Because we all know it was the pharmacist's job to keep you alive. He was legally allowed to make a choice in this situation, whether he felt morally against or whatever reason you want to plug in there....he didn't have to SELL it. He even directed her to another place, which he was suppose to do. What's hilarious is you all think that there is only one pharamacist out there that did what he would have done....oh I'm sure Kroger or Walmart or Rite Aid, CVS, Walgreens, etc doesn't have anyone there who would have done the same thing and HAVE done the same thing when the situation presented itself there. But yeah, you go ahead and boycott those places and then lets see where you get your prescriptions.
If getting pregnant risks this woman's life then why on earth was she not already using at least two forms of birth control?! For crying out loud is this woman suicidal? Clearly this woman is not showing sound judgment! Then she asks a third party to be involved in selling her a product that he objects to using and her being upset when he refuses.
If someone won't sell you a product you want then by all means go to one of the other stores in Charlottesville that does. Good grief! I mean Planned Parenthood probably gives the stuff away by the case, so why not go there? This is not a small one pharmacy town, go to another one! Don't try to get someone in trouble or fired because your beliefs are different than theirs!
This woman wanted her 15 minutes of fame, she got it, and now I hope she is happy!
Exactly ---Middle aged woman having recreational sex but not adequately protecting herself from a pregnancy that could be extremly harmful to her health . Some train wreck people have no shame in putting their pathetic selves out in public with the intent of harming an honest,dedicated,hard working person spending his/her time delivering health care items .My suspicion is that the poor maligned K Mart employee does more good in one week than this woman could dream of doing in her entire life .
I didn't know Kmart even had a pharmacy. Now that I know that Plan B is probably their most popular product. I don't think anyone is too old to be aborted under the correct circumstances.
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of others faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." ~Patrick Henry, Revolutionary Patriot (1736-1799)
Most of the people of this country moved here to escape religious tyranny. They wanted to worship the way they wanted to worship. Too bad some have forgotten this spirit. Back in Patrick Henry's time they thought it was okay to enslave another person, too. He was a slave owner, which will always make me question how he could have been a good Christian as well. Times have changed. Christianity is not the only religion, it is not the best religion. Religions start most wars. It is time to be tolerant and respectful of all religions or lack thereof and stop the narrow minded thinking that one is superior to the others.
@ Possibly...very well said. Spot on.