Hook Logo
Search

COVER- Alarming: Most smoke detectors don't detect deadly smoke


Published 7/10/2008 12:00:00 AM in issue 728 of the Hook
Bookmark and Share


The charred living room at 2208-B North Berkshire Road shows the horrifying damage inflicted by a housefire.
PHOTO BY COURTENEY STUART

Imagine a room filling with smoke billowing from a smoldering couch. Visibility becomes increasingly compromised, but not enough to fully obscure a round white device affixed to the ceiling. It's a smoke detector. In fact, it's a brand new one with a brand new battery. But despite a haze now thick and acrid enough to disorient an adult, as smoke and carbon monoxide build toward deadly levels, the detector remains silent.

 

The Hook doesn't have to imagine this scenario: we created it.

With the help of a Boston-based fire expert, we saw and heard the critical problem with the smoke detectors most Americans have on their walls and ceilings, the problem that could mean the difference between life and death.

Boston Deputy Fire Chief Jay Fleming has become a pariah to people who tout, sell, or even give away ionization detectors, the most common type. He believes they're nearly useless, and our test showed why.

 

What's wrong with ions?

The smoke detector industry, tightly controlled by two giants, Kidde and First Alert, doesn't release annual sales figures for the different types of detectors. However, FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, indicates that by 1991, 88 percent of American homes had at least one detector, and current stats from the National Fire Protection Association put the figure-- thanks to low prices and vigorous campaigns by America's fire officials-- at an astounding 96 percent.

But what if most of them don't actually detect smoke when you most need them to?

This is a story about ionization detectors, which constitute the bulk of the installed detectors and which can now be readily purchased for less than $5.

Ionization detectors activate when combustion particles interact with a small amount of americium-241, a radioactive material. In the fight for safety, ionization detectors have one edge. They're faster than their key competitors, photoelectric detectors, at detecting the tiny particles released by an open flame-- but only by 30 seconds.

It's also a story about photoelectric detectors, which, according to Fleming and our test, could be the difference between life and death.

According to Fleming, and as the Charlottesville test seemed to demonstrate, photoelectric detectors are faster than ionization detectors at detecting the larger particles released by a smoldering fire-- by 30 minutes and sometimes longer.

And smoldering fires, Fleming says, are the reason to have a smoke detector in the first place. This is the type of fire likely to kill you when you're sleeping at night.

Yet despite these assertions, neither Kidde nor First Alert print warnings on the packaging of ionization detectors to alert consumers that the detector won't detect smoldering fires until they've erupted into flames-- and that they're more susceptible to nuisance alarms. Kidde even goes a step further in defending ionization detectors, claiming in an article on the front page of its website that "Studies show both types will effectively detect either type of fire."

One such study, a two-year project conducted by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, released in 2004, does make that exact claim.

"It's simply not true, and they know that," says Fleming, who criticizes the NIST test and points out, among other things, that NIST admits the detectors used in the test were "modified," but has never explained how. Fleming also says the placement of the detectors in the study favored ionization technology and did not approximate the likely conditions in a real house fire.

Through spokespersons, Kidde and First Alert refused to answer any of the Hook's questions about smoke detector technology, the number of each type of detector they sell annually, and Fleming's charge that they are misleading consumers by refusing to place complete information-- including warnings-- on the labels of ionization detectors. As for the NIST test, Fleming says he has sent repeated critiques to the organization but has never received answers to his questions.

Jason Averill, in NIST's Building and Fire Research Laboratory, referred the Hook to an article posted on the front page of NIST's website, purporting to answer questions about its test and smoke detectors in general. Fleming says the article doesn't address his specific questions.

Stunned by the critical importance of such questions, the Hook flew Fleming from Boston last month to test his arguments in a smoke detector experiment in Charlottesville.

On Tuesday, June 10, with support from local fire officials, we conducted a test of the three types of detectors-- ionization, photoelectric, and combination-- in the local "burn center," a fire training facility off Avon Street.

The results were shocking. Just as Fleming predicted, one type of detector didn't activate despite smoke thick enough to require the firefighters and reporters witnessing the test to don breathing apparatus. That silent detector was the ionization model-- the type found in an estimated 90 percent of American homes. 

 

Photoelectric winning support

If Fleming is right, as many as 10,000 people have died as a result of ionization detectors that were either disabled or didn't activate in time. By switching to photoelectric, he says, "We can save the next 10,000."

If the number seems high, it's because there are a devastating number of house fires in America every year. In 2006, according to the National Fire Protection Association, 524,000 structure fires resulted in 2,705 deaths, 14,350 injuries, and more than $9 billion in property damage. 

Prompted by Fleming's efforts, a swelling chorus of voices are joining an international outcry that photoelectrics replace ionizations in all homes. This month, legislators in Vermont and Massachusetts signed laws requiring photoelectrics in all new houses and in existing homes when they're sold.

Massachusetts Senator and former presidential contender John Kerry recently added his voice. In a  June 12 letter to the Consumer Product Safety Commission, Kerry demanded answers to Fleming's  "serious concerns"-- which include 50 complaints filed with the Commission about ionization detectors.

Kerry asks why the Commission has failed to investigate and warn the public about the dangers ionization detectors pose: namely, that they are often disabled by residents annoyed by frequent nuisance alarms, and-- more importantly-- that even when functioning, they may not provide enough warning to allow people to escape from a smoldering fire.

The Australasian Fire Authorities Council, composed of Australian fire officials, now endorses photoelectric detectors only, as do the fire organizations in several European nations.

Here in Charlottesville, several recent local fires seem to illustrate Fleming's argument. So what's keeping our local fire officials from embracing photoelectric-only technology? 

 

Deadly fire, working detector?

Since the Hook began investigating some local fire scenes in April, we've learned that determining the detector's type and operability in a fire investigation takes a back seat to pinpointing the cause of the blaze.

Yet for one survivor of a deadly fire 18 months ago, knowledge of the detector type now offers a plausible explanation for some previously mystifying-- and tragic-- circumstances.

In the early hours of March 18, 2007, UVA grad Mark Allen awoke in his Lewis Mountain Road bedroom to an emergency.

Allen and his roommate had hosted a St. Patrick's Day party the previous evening, and after his roommate left to spend the night elsewhere, Allen did a quick clean-up and went in bed, he guesses, by 2:30am. An hour later, he says, smoke, heat, and something else woke him up: the beeping smoke alarm.

"It was in the hallway, going off," he says.

By then, however, the fire had progressed from smoke to a roaring blaze that had already nearly engulfed his bedroom.

Amid intense heat and flames lapping at his bed, Allen leapt up to bang on the door of the second bedroom, where his friends, 24-year-old Ashley Mauter and 25-year-old Brett Quarterman, were sleeping.

Allen then raced next door to warn the tenants in the duplex's other unit, who called 911. By the time he returned to his own side, the hallway ceiling had collapsed, taking out the beeping detector and trapping Mauter and Quarterman.

Allen had seen them scramble out of bed and assumed that since they'd awakened, they had escaped. Unfortunately, the two were already in the throes of carbon monoxide poisoning. Both were eventually pulled through a bedroom window by firefighters, who arrived minutes after the 911 call.

Mauter survived with extensive lung damage and third-degree burns on much of her left side. She was kept in an induced coma for a month and underwent multiple skin graft surgeries and months of rehab before she could return home.

But the rescue was too late for Quarterman. The young engineer, a 2005 Virginia Tech graduate, died two days later of smoke inhalation.

News stories from the time struggled to make sense of the tragedy. Initial reports claimed the alarm had been disabled. But in the Hook's April 17 cover story,  "Smoldering truth: Ashley Mauter and a shocking fact about smoke detectors," Allen dropped his bombshell: that the detector had worked-- just too late to provide time for escape.

Fleming says it's a story he's heard too many times.

Often, alcohol is cited as a reason victims fail to awaken in time, and in the Lewis Mountain fire, survivors admitted they'd all been drinking. However, Fleming says alcohol consumption-- unless so extreme that it leads to unconsciousness-- shouldn't make a significant difference. He cites an Australian study in which participants drank to a .o8 level, then went to bed and were awakened by a detector. The study showed that legally intoxicated subjects could still be awakened by the alarm, although in many cases it took minutes longer.

"If an alarm went off 30 minutes earlier, right after a smoldering fire began and before the smoke built up," Fleming says, "even intoxicated people would have plenty of time to awaken and escape."

Although the type of detector was not initially determined in the Lewis Mountain fire, Charlottesville Fire Marshal Steve Walton provided a photograph of the detector, which he said investigators had discovered in two pieces among the debris. The two circular chambers seem to indicate it was an ionization model, and that lends credence to Fleming's theory that the detector sounded too late.

While Walton says the detector had no battery when it was found, Allen says his Lewis Mountain Road landlord, Joseph H. Kober (who did not return the Hook's calls), found the soot-covered battery several days later, supporting Allen's assertion that the detector worked as well as it could.

"These really aren't smoke detectors," says Fleming. "They're fire detectors."

 

North Berkshire

The Lewis Mountain fire isn't the only recent one in which an ionization detector may have delayed escape time.

In the early hours of Monday, May 12, 23-year-old John Carter awoke in the ground-level living room of 2208-B North Berkshire Road to a scene similar to the one that had greeted Allen more than a year earlier: thick smoke, searing heat, and roaring flames. 

"I still think about it," said a shaken Carter three days after blaze as he took a reporter, under the still-powerful scent of smoke, past the blackened walls, the sooty ceiling, and the charred furniture in the split-level duplex where he nearly died.

Carter-- who'd arrived at the empty apartment with the tenant's permission around 5am and "went to bed right away"-- tried to escape up the half-staircase to the front door, but his escape was blocked by flames. Although he couldn't see anything in the living room, he remembered a window above the couch on which he'd been sleeping. He broke the window, and as he reached out, firefighters pulled him to safety.

The fire department was already on the scene because a resident in the other side of the duplex had smelled smoke and heard the smoke detector going off inside the burning unit when his alarm clock woke him at 6am.

As was the case at Lewis Mountain Road, the Charlottesville Fire Department did not determine the type of detectors in the North Berkshire duplex-- only that two were present, and that they were hardwired and functioning.

The week after the fire, and after the investigation was complete, the Hook-- joined by the building's owner, former County Supervisor Charles Martin-- removed the detector from the wall of Carter's unit and identified it as an ionization model.

The origin of the North Berkshire fire was determined to be the kitchen, and Fire Marshal Steve Walton says investigators believe it may have started at the stove.

Carter, however, says he never entered the kitchen or cooked anything; and Fleming points out that stoves typically don't burst into open flame in the middle of the night. He suggests that an electrical fire might have been smoldering in the wall before Carter even arrived and went to bed. 

As the Hook's detector test revealed, a fire can smolder upwards of an hour before it ignites-- and photoelectric gives a potentially life-saving head start.

 

The Test

Tucked behind the Albemarle Charlottesville Regional Jail on Avon Street Extended, the so-called "burn center" is a cinderblock structure of a basement, two upper floors, and heavy steel doors. The exterior has been stained black by repeated blazes deliberately set to provide training for local firefighters. But the structure's post-apocalyptic aesthetic belies its technological sophistication: temperature gauges are contained inside all walls and ceilings.

On Tuesday, June 10, the day of the Hook's smoke detector test, firefighters and EMTs from Albemarle Fire Rescue arrived before 8am to prepare. Fleming's test protocol, which he has used in numerous locations around the country, is straightforward and matches the protocol used in the NIST smoke detector test. 

First, a standard sofa is ignited inside the building to create a smoldering fire, like one created by a cigarette between cushions. The second time it's ignited as a fast-growing flame fire, like one created by a candle knocked onto cushions.

For the Hook's test, we purchased six detectors from Charlottesville stores, Martin Hardware and Lowe's. Two of each type were affixed to the ceiling-- ionization, photoelectric, and combination, which use both types of technology. One set of three was within the room; a second set placed in an adjacent room separated by a wide door frame.

To witness the test, this reporter and Hook editor Hawes Spencer joined firefighters, including Fleming, in donning full fire protection gear-- head-to-toe coverage including breathing apparatus, which offered protection from heat, smoke and carbon monoxide. (On a day when the temperature outside soared to an oppressive 93 degrees, we gained a new appreciation for firefighters who work in 60 pounds of thick, claustrophobia-inducing equipment).

At 9:49am, Albemarle Fire Training Captain Matthew Reed inserted a soldering iron between the seat cushions. As Fleming predicted, nothing happened at first. Six minutes later, at 9:54am, the first wisps of smoke appeared, snaking in a column toward the ceiling. By 9:58, the smoke had begun to build in the room-- hanging like a veil about five feet above the ground. A plastic smell-- the result of synthetic material burning-- was detectable.

"Put on your masks," Reed ordered.

The training facility, the safest place for the test, does not exactly mimic a house. The "windows," for instance, are steel shutters that swing shut but still allow air to pass through visible cracks around the edges. A 6-inch gap at the bottom of every external door allows water used to extinguish fires to flush out easily-- but it also allows air to circulate. For our test, those gaps were covered with plastic, but still, Fleming and the local firefighters agreed, the increased air circulation prevented smoke from building as quickly as it would inside a modern energy-efficient home.

Even with that additional air flow, the smoke thickened, leading the first detector inside the room to sound at 10:15am, 25 minutes after the soldering iron was inserted. A second detector, this one outside the room, went off almost simultaneously. 

As Fleming predicted, both were photoelectrics.

Three minutes later, both combination detectors went off. And Fleming was quick to point out that conditions, while uncomfortable, were not close to deadly.

 "There's still enough visibility in this room for egress," he said through his mask.

That situation changed as the fire continued to smolder and the smoke continued to build. The building's carbon monoxide alarms blared, yet from the ionization detectors... silence. 

"A few breaths of this, and you'd be incapacitated," Fleming said.

Dr. Chris Holstege, toxicologist and medical director of the Blue Ridge Poison Center, agrees that inhaling smoke even briefly can quickly disable someone if the concentration of toxic fumes is high enough. It's impossible to know just by looking at the smoke.

"It could be a few breaths, and you may have a problem-- or it may not be," he says. "Some people get out and do okay; others collapse before they can get out."

In addition to carbon monoxide, Holstege notes that when burned, the synthetic fabrics in modern furniture can release toxic substances such as cyanide, making it critical to escape as quickly as possible.

"If something's smoldering in the house," he says, "just get out." 

But someone sleeping in a house equipped with an ionization detector might not have that option when a smoldering fire ignites. 

More than an hour and a half after the couch was first heated, and more than an hour after all the photoelectric and combination detectors had triggered, the couch fire was smoldering faster, and the smoke concentration was building-- but the fire still hadn't converted to flames, and the ionization detector remained quiet.

Fleming wasn't surprised.

 

Ionization's benefit?

An hour and a half into the test, the firefighters' and reporters' air tanks were rapidly emptying, so Fleming approved a request to use a live flame to ignite the couch. As a firefighter touched a torch to the smoldering couch, flames quickly erupted, and within 30 seconds, both ionization detectors finally triggered.

The ionization detector performed as Fleming predicted-- it warned of the fast-spreading flame. But if that had been a sleeping resident's first warning, Fleming pointed out, they would have been breathing toxic fumes and carbon monoxide for well over an hour-- long enough, Fleming and Dr. Holstege agree, to confuse and potentially incapacitate someone.

But how would photoelectrics fare with a flaming fire?  

Part II of the test used a flaming fire and tested Fleming's assertion that the ionization would trigger first with photoelectric sounding soon after.

After allowing the smoke from the first fire to clear, firefighters ignited a second couch, this time using a torch for flames from the start. The in-room ionization detector triggered exactly one minute later, followed quickly by the in-room combination detector at 68 seconds. The photoelectric triggered 95 seconds after ignition-- just 35 seconds after the ionization alarm.

Outside the room, the results were similar. The ionization triggered at 93 seconds, the combination went off at 95 seconds, and the photoelectric went off at 119 seconds-- just 26 seconds between the first and last.

Fleming has never disputed that ionization provides a slight edge at detecting flaming fires, but he contends that the edge is too slight to overcome its shortcomings on smoldering fires and its tendency, along with combinations, to fall prey to nuisance alarms.

Prior tests have shown that kitchen fires, including burned toast, and even shower steam, are far more likely to trigger the ionization technology, leading many to remove batteries or otherwise disable the devices. One study found that ionization detectors, as a result of nuisance alarms, are eight times more like than photoelectrics to be disabled.

Despite the 26-to-35-second lag, Fleming says the photoelectrics sounded their alert at least two minutes before temperature and smoke conditions rendered the room impassable. "It does what it needs to do," Fleming says. "It gives you time to get out."

That each type of detector performs better in different fire types is not in dispute-- in fact, it's boldly printed on detector packaging, and it's the basis for the endorsement of combination detectors by the International Association of Fire Chiefs.

"You don't know what kind of fire you're going to have," says Edie Clark, spokesperson for the Chiefs group. 

But Fleming calls that fatal reasoning, as a combination detector offers little protection from the nuisance alarms that cause people to disable them. Disabled alarms, Fleming says, can have deadly consequences.

That may have been the case in the January 26 fire on Woodlake Drive, where, according to Albemarle fire officials, a 911 call indicated that the detector in the Four Seasons townhouse of 46-year-old long-distance runner Gregory Edward McMullen was not functioning.

The Emergency Communications Center declined the Hook's request for a copy of the 911 tape, citing the the need to protect McMullen's family and the "personal nature" of the call. According to Albemarle fire investigator Bill Clark, the Department couldn't hear an alarm during McMullen's 911 call.

Although family members reportedly told Clark there was a smoke detector upstairs, Clark says investigators never found it, so they couldn't determine the type or whether the battery was properly inserted.

As evidence of how quickly carbon monoxide can be fatal, a napping McMullen awakened from smoke and was able to call 911 from his bedroom, where he was trapped by the blaze that officials believe was started by candles downstairs. That was 7:43pm. Even though firefighters arrived at 7:48pm, just five minutes later, it was too late for McMullen. He died of carbon monoxide poisoning.

 

Turning tide?

It's been more than 15 years since Fleming started investigating detectors, and he estimates that in that time he's spent 5,000 hours in research. He has presented his findings to fire officials, to manufacturers, and to lawmakers in several states.

But there is resistance. Fleming says lower ranked fire professionals typically agree with him quickly, after reviewing his evidence. Convincing their bosses, many of whom have been freely dispensing ionization detectors, to admit they've been wrong, however, has been harder.

"We've given these things out for 20 years," Fleming says he frequently hears from firefighters, "and the chief is embarrassed."

Despite that resistance, Fleming's message, it seems, is finally sinking in, and he's hoping its just the beginning.

In Vermont, for instance, Fleming was able to sway legislators after first winning the support of a state firefighter's organization.

"The more I found out about the differences between photoelectric and ionization, and how much of a difference it can make in time," says Matt Vinci, president of the Professional Firefighters of Vermont, "the more we felt it was something that as an organization we needed to support."

Vinci says he and his colleagues weren't instantly convinced.

"We took a very neutral approach to this," he says. "We were not influenced by the industry, by those in the code-making arena. We looked at the facts."

One of those facts was a fatal 2006 fire in Barre, Vermont that killed four children and their mother. When firefighters arrived at the smoke-filled house, the ionization smoke detector had still not triggered. 

Vinci is excited about the new legislation requiring photoelectric technology and its life-saving potential.

 "This is first and foremost a piece of legislation that will protect citizens," he says, "but it will also protect firefighters. The sooner we're alerted to a fire, the less probability there is that we'll get injured."

Together, Vinci's organization and Fleming's fire house, Boston 718, will introduce a resolution at next month's annual convention of the International Association of Firefighters seeking an "international position" supporting only photoelectrics. If the resolution passes, IAFF will become the first major U.S.-based fire organization to take such a stance, and Fleming hopes it will lead others to follow.

Locally, Charlottesville and Albemarle fire departments both follow the Fire Chiefs association's endorsement of combination detectors. Charlottesville Chief Charles Werner says he wants to see further research before he will switch. Part of his stance, he says, stems from personal experience with kitchen fires in which property was saved, he believes, by the ionization detector's speedy alert of flames.

Albemarle Assistant Chief of Fire Prevention James Barber agrees with Werner that more research is needed. He'd like to see data showing the death rate falling in localities where photoelectrics are required. And, like Werner, he says his personal experience keeps him from switching now.

"We've had fire fatalities because candles have been left burning, and from unattended cooking," says Barber, noting that both types of fires typically start as an open flame.

Another concern Barber and Werner express is that residents might assume an ionization detector is worse than having none at all. 

 "I really don't want to send a message that even though there are two different technologies, only one is right," says Barber. However, after the smoke detector test, both Barber and Werner reveal a new policy: their departments will now routinely determine which type of detector is present at each major fire scene.

In response to concerns that some people may decide to discard ionization detectors in favor of no fire protection, Fleming says consumers can be trusted to act wisely. He notes that the introduction of auto air-bags briefly prompted worries that motorists would discard the old stand-by.

"When airbags came out," Fleming says, "seat belt use didn't go down; it went up."

He'd like to see the same safety-conscious effect with smoke detectors, that people toss their ionization models only when they're replacing each with a photoelectric. "I've never said ionization is worse than nothing," he says.

But Fleming will keep sounding the alert, he says, until his message is accepted by the industry and by government agencies with the ability to trumpet the best technology.

"I'm one person fighting everybody else," says Fleming, "but I'm making progress."

Vermont's Vinci says he believes Fleming will eventually succeed in changing smoke detector policy around the world.

"Some opponents are trying to discredit him" says Vinci, "but I don't think they can."


By the time this ionization detector sounded at the North Berkshire Road duplex during an early-morning May 12 fire, smoke and flames nearly prevented a sleeping man from escaping.
PHOTO BY COURTENEY STUART

"I still think about it," said John Carter, who was sleeping in the downstairs of the split-level duplex when the fire broke out. He was pulled through the ground-level window by firefighters.
PHOTO BY COURTENEY STUART

The ionization detector at Lewis Mountain Road did sound during the fatal March 18, 2007 fire. Resident Mark Allen says by the time it awakened him, smoke was thick and flames were spreading. Allen escaped, but 25-year-old Brett Quarterman died, and his girlfriend, Ashley Mauter, suffered severe burns.
PHOTO COURTESY CHARLOTTESVILLE FIRE DEPARTMENT

No cause was ever determined for the fire at 2015 Lewis Mountain Road.
FILE PHOTO BY HAWES SPENCER

Ionization detectors "aren't smoke detectors," says Jay Fleming. "They're fire detectors."
PHOTO BY JEN FARIELLO

"I'm on a one-man mission to save as many lives as possible," says Boston Deputy Fire Chief Jay Fleming. The Hook brought Fleming to Charlottesville for the June 10 smoke detector test in the local fire training facility behind the Albemarle Charlottesville Regional Jail on Avon Street.
PHOTO BY JEN FARIELLO

The Hook's smoke detector test used two of each type of detector-- ionization, photoelectric, and combination. One of each was affixed to the ceiling inside the room where the fire was set; another set of three was attached to the ceiling immediately outside a doorless opening inside the burn center.
PHOTO BY COURTENEY STUART

9:49-- A soldering iron is inserted between couch cushions to ignite a smoldering fire.
PHOTO BY HAWES SPENCER

9:54am-- A thin plume of smoke snakes toward the ceiling.
PHOTO BY HAWES SPENCER

10:15-- Both photoelectric detectors sound; three minutes later, the combination alarms go off.
PHOTO BY HAWES SPENCER

11:51-- Nearly two hours after the smoldering fire was set-- and more than an hour after the building's carbon monoxide detectors sounded-- the ionization detectors remain silent. They won't go off until actual flames appear.
PHOTO BY HAWES SPENCER

 

 

Comments

                     
Fire Safety7/10/2008 9:42:11 AM

Which would you choose to use, a seat belt or an airbag? False dichotomy: the answer is to use both.

The same holds true with the two types of detectors. In fact, that's what the National Association of State Fire Marshals, the National Fire Protection Association, Underwriters Laboratories, the U.S. Fire Administration, and the Consumer Product Safety Administration all recommend.

Units with both types of detectors are becoming more common and will become the norm in coming years.

CPSC addressed the issue prior to Fleming's and Kerry's allegations, by the way. See: http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/559.pdf

I am not associated with CPSC.

Adrian Butler7/10/2008 6:43:01 PM

Courtney Stewart - congratulations! You have done an amazing job with this story exposing the inherently deadly ionization type of smoke detector found in hundreds of millions of homes around the world.

For twenty years the truth about ionization detectors has been kept from the global public and countless fire-fighters and tens of thousands of people have been needlessly killed or injured.

Why does Underwriters Laboratories and other Standards organizations continue to allow these devices to pass allegedly flawed tests when ionization detectors are patently unsafe?

Here in Australia our Government's testing agency, the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization (CSIRO), holds irrefutable scientific proof that ionization detectors should NEVER have been allowed to pass ANY global fire safety Standards.

It should not be “embarrassing” for Fire Chiefs who have been promoting these defective ionization alarms because IT IS NOT THEIR FAULT! They are innocent victims of decades of misinformation.

No one likes to admit they were wrong.

It is time to stop defending the indefensible and tell the public the truth before too many more lives are needlessly lost.

Is saving face more important than saving lives?

www.SmokeAlarmRecall.org

Adrian Butler

Chariman

World Fire Safety Foundation

AUSTRALIA

+61 409 782 166

Adrian Butler7/10/2008 7:31:41 PM

‘Fire Safety’ poses the question:

"Which would you choose to use, a seat belt or an airbag?

False dichotomy: the answer is to use both"

Chief Fleming explained why encumbering a perfectly effective photoelectric alarm, which will safely detect BOTH stages of a fire, (smoldering and flaming) with an ionization sensor introduces the false alarm aspect whereby approximately 30% of the public will disable the alarm.

Is the sale of combination alarms a marketing ploy of the manufacturers?

The mantra “There are two TYPES of fires therefore, for best protection you need two types of detectors” sounds credible but it is absolutely NOT.

There are two STAGES of fire, smoldering and flaming and you MUST detect the fire in the smoldering STAGE, BEFORE it breaks into the flaming STAGE when it is almost always too late!

Selling combination alarms allows those who have told the public that ionization alarms were fine for twenty years to NOT have to admit they were wrong. “Look at how much we care for your safety – let’s add this ‘new’ photoelectric sensor to the trusty ionization detector and now we will give you even better protection!”

Manufacturers of combination alarms are laughing all the way to the bank.

The International Association of Fire Chiefs were right in their ‘1980 Residential Smoke Alarm Report’ when they warned Fire Chiefs around the world about the danger of ionization alarms. They said they could ONLY recommend photoelectric detectors AND warned AGAINST combination detectors.

But 'Fire Safety's argues that "the NFPA, UL, the USFA and the CPSC all recommend combination alarms”. Yes they do – but should we be listening to them? After all aren’t they the very ones who told us for decades how wonderful ionization detectors were? Is it just possible they may not be able to be objective?

If in doubt read this article from the CPSC.

www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/559.pdf

Examine the stopwatch graphics on pages 3 and 4. The CPSC says “Both ionization and photoelectric detectors are effective smoke sensors”. ‘Alarming: Most Smoke Detectors Don’t Detect Smoke’ shows why they are NOT! So why is the CPSC continuing to go to so much trouble to keep the truth from the public?

Is saving face more important than saving lives?

www.SmokeAlarmRecall.org

Adrian Butler

Chariman

World Fire Safety Foundation

AUSTRALIA

+61 409 782 166

Fire Safety7/11/2008 8:51:41 AM

>>There are two STAGES of fire, smoldering and flaming and you MUST detect the fire in the smoldering STAGE, BEFORE it breaks into the flaming STAGE when it is almost always too late!<<

Actually, there are two TYPES of fires. One type follows the scenario you describe, and photoelectric alarms are, indeed, best suited to detect them

The other involves little if any smoldering, just a quickly flashing fire -- for example, flammable vapors meeting the pilot light of a water heater and then igniting nearby paper and cardboard boxes(*). Ionization detectors are best for this type of fire.

As for false alarms and ionization detectors -- most false alarms are due to placement too close to cooking appliances. Proper placement fixes this problem in most cases.

(*)this scenario is common enough that water heater makers have redesigned their products (although the older, more dangerous type of heater still is in most homes).

Mike Dayoub7/12/2008 9:15:30 AM

The Lowe's and Home Depots here in my town only stock ionization detectors.

It's troubling that a $5 difference in retail price can cause entire markets to not even be given a CHOICE of photoelectric or combo detectors.

Kris7/13/2008 2:41:07 PM

A really helpful addition or follow-up to this article would be how you can id which kind of detector you have. I've looked at ours, but there is no indication what type it is on the outside. If there is an easy way to tell which is which, help everyone out and let us know. Thanks.

Mike7/16/2008 6:30:01 PM

Are we talking Smoke Alarms or Smoke Detectors here! I believe that there is a difference between the two, and both actually do operate differently! I believe that during testing of both you will find the response times of smoke detectors and smoke alarms will differ! Most people do not have a Smoke Detector in their Single Family Dwelling, but a smoke alarm instead!!

Scott7/19/2008 10:22:59 AM

I congratulate the workings of Chief Flemming and all involved on this ongoing research/education. The news show 20/20 also did a tv presentation in the early 90's on ions vs. photo's. Quite impressive and awaking information. The end result was, much larger profit margin to the manufacturer on an ion, public awareness, national, state and local fire code requirements. It's an eye opener to believe that the cost of life safety is the difference of a $5.00 detector rather than a $20.00 detector.

kevin morris7/19/2008 8:23:37 PM

I was going thru a ed meth class and my small presentation was on smoke detectors,after conducting research, I truly learned the differances and advantages,enough to replace all the recently replaced hardwired detectors in my house over to photoelectric.The store that we purchaced these from had to order them in and questioned the reason for this type,my wife was picking them up and explained that I was a fireman and this was part of my class,and explained the differances to him,passing on the knowledge. Hopefully the salesman passed this on.

Russ J. Warne7/23/2008 10:07:48 PM

I'm convinced. I'm going to check my smoke (fire?) detectors and make sure I have the right ones to protect my family. Thanks! Retired Oakland (CA) Fire Department.

ES8/1/2008 4:04:17 PM

Response from NIST.....

http://readthehook.com/stories/2008/07/31/LETTER-NISTonFire-B.aspx

Jay8/15/2008 3:52:13 AM

Hello. Having a knowledge of smoke detectors from being a Volunteer Fireman, and from a life experience, I can say that the above article is correct.

Ion Detectors are FIRE detectors, NOT SMOKE detectors. Yes, it's true that they will sense a flaming fire faster, on average of 30 seconds, and that flaming fires have a more serious immidate impact that a slow smoldering fire. However, for cooking/kitchen/knocked over candles, they all have one thing in common, in over 95% of the cases, the people are AWAKE when it happens. This will give them enough time to fight the fire, or to escape. And the photoelectric alarms will still respond to this type of fire, abiet 30 second slower, Still enough time to get out.

Now on to our smoldering fire. in 95% of the cases, the people will be alseep, and will need the advance warning. The ion unit will not alarm at all, or alarm when it's too late. This was the case in my own personal fire experience. We had 4 detectors, 3 ions and a combo. We had a smoldering electrical fire in the bathroom, take a guess what detector went off? If you said the ions, WRONG!!!!

If it were not for the photo sensor of that detector, there would be a family member not with me right now.

The IAFC recommended photos back in the early 80's, did anybody listen?

If you look at the full NIST reports, they STATE that the ion detectors may not sound at all or in time to give enough time for persons who have a disablity to escape in a smoldering fire.

Wait a minite, they clearly state that, but they also continue to say that both alarms will give enough warning and escape. Ummmm....... Anybody else see a problem here?

And on combo alarms, well, there is actually a 4th combo alarm, not tested or mentioned, I personally think it is the Ultimate smoke and fire alarm.

What I'm talking about is the photoelectric with HEAT sensors. They are very commom in commercial fire alarm systems, but almost non-existant in the residental smoke alarm setting. I can think of 4 companies that make them Gentex, Masterguard (Gentex)Triad Safety (Gentex) and Everday.

Everday is made overseas, and is very difficiult to get a hold of, but that is what I have in my own home.

All of those detectors have a photoelectric with Heat Sensor, either Fixed Temperature 135-165* or rate of rise +15* in 1 minute, or both.

These are the ultiamte smoke detector, as they will detect a smoke AND fire condition.

We put an old masterguard to the test along with a ion, photo, combo, and the photo heat.

During the flaming fire, it was always Ion, combo, photo.

Now, it's ion, combo, Heat/photo, followed by photo.

The flaming fire has the photo behind the ion on average of 30 seconds.

Now with the heat sensor portion of the unit, the photo/heat unit is behind the ion on average of 7 SECONDS, down from 30. 8 tests were done, 4 smoldering, 4 flaming. Now you have only an 7 second delay instead of 30, and you WILL NOT HAVE ANY "Ion" related nusiance alarms from this unit as it's heat, burn all the toast you want, if there is no visible smoke, and no signifant heat, THE ALARM WILL NOT SOUND.

These units cure 99% of false alarms, and still give you the safety of a "Dual Sensor" unit.

As far as I'm concerned, these are the only true "dual sensor units" and will provide the occupant with the most safety.

Here are the web pages:

http://www.everday.com/residential.php

(I personally have the SD-728-H)

http://www.gentex.com/fire_photo_pd3.html

http://www.masterguard.com/Smoke.aspx

Dean Dennis8/15/2008 4:28:10 PM

Having lost my daughter in a fire (from smoke inhalation when asleep) while she was away at college, I have done much research. I am convinced photoelectric detectors are the way to go. If you need any convincing at all, simply call the smoke detector companies and ask them this simple question, "Where is a better location to place an ionization detector, instead of a photoelectric?" See if you can get an answer. The company I called would not answer this basic question. Saying nothing, saids a lot.

Dean Dennis8/15/2008 4:28:17 PM

Having lost my daughter in a fire (from smoke inhalation when asleep) while she was away at college, I have done much research. I am convinced photoelectric detectors are the way to go. If you need any convincing at all, simply call the smoke detector companies and ask them this simple question, "Where is a better location to place an ionization detector, instead of a photoelectric?" See if you can get an answer. The company I called would not answer this basic question. Saying nothing, saids a lot.

Courteney Stuart8/15/2008 4:43:06 PM

Dear Mr. Dennis,

Thanks for commenting, and I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter. I'm working on another story about smoke detectors and would like to speak with you. If you're willing, I can be reached by email at [email protected] or by phone at 434-295-8700 ext. 236.

Courteney

Jay8/16/2008 2:39:55 AM

Mr. Dennis,

I too am sad to hear about that story, and for the loss of your loved one. Like I said in my previous post, I almost lost a family member, but the photo side of that combo unit responded to the smoke,and it is the only alarm that sounded, and because of that, they were saved. All 3 of the other ions were SILENT. I had it instelled by dumb luck.

I called up one of those companies and and played stupid, stating that I saw the TV news stories, and that I heard about the new Vermont photoelectric law. And then I asked why did you only have 1 batery powered photo model, and 8 ionization models, and why you did not have any battery powered heat detectors, or Photoelectric with Heat combo alarms.

I did get an answer.... I real doozy, but it is to be expected. The only thing that I heard was DUAL SENSOR, DUAL SENSOR, DUAL SENSOR.... You don't know what kind of fire may start, so why not get one that has both sensors in it.....

I then stated what about by a kithen or bathroom hallway that may have cooking or shower steam? I was then directed to go for their Photo only model.

I finally stated but what about loosing that ion sensor in those areas, am I any less protected? I was told, that would not be a problem.

It goes to show, after the new laws are in affect, and the decision of that Hackert case, I tend to agree with Adrian Butler from above that the new thing is going to be Combo alarms, as they really don't need to admit any libality in doing do, and that 2 sensors will mean super safety, and we care about our customers.

This next year is going to be very interesting.

Chris1/16/2009 3:54:53 AM

How to tell the difference between ionization and photoelectric detectors:

New in the box, every detector should have labeling on the box indicating which type of technology they employ.

Installed and in use detectors: Ionization type detectors use americium-241 a small amount of radioactive material. This information will be printed on the smoke detector usually on the underside out of view, you will have to take the detector down to find this information. So if there is anything about radioactive material, you detector is most likely an Ionization type detector.

Courteney, Thank you for your work on this issue, I am currently assisting the Professional Fire Fighters of Idaho in lobbying for change in our state law concerning this very issue. Best regards.

Chris Verkerk; Paramedic/Engineer

Meridian Fire Fighters

IAFF Local 4627

Professional Fire Fighters of Idaho

Jen1/30/2009 1:20:01 PM

I am currently talking to a Masterguard consultant about their alarms. I am just wondering why the high price tag? Are they really that much better than the photo ones at the store? If any of you have any expierence with this company I would love the input. I want my kids safe, but if I do not NEED to spend $2000 to do that I would prefer to save the money and buy the photo detectors at the local store.

JJ1/30/2009 8:09:54 PM

$2000? My quote was $8000! No way is that possible. Where can we get these for a decent price?

JJ2/5/2009 3:59:59 PM

Some more research and I found photo and ionization combos for about $40 and a heat one for about $40. So to get all three, it could be done for $80, not the ~$400 each that Masterguard has and they only have the photo and heat, not ionization.

Anyone else here find any difference from the "high-end" Masterguard ones compared to the lower priced ones I found?

Carolyn2/6/2009 11:48:55 PM

I had the Masterguard installed two days ago and tested them against the store bought photoelectric/ion tonight. I tested by starting a fire in a glass cutting off the oxygen to put the fire out so that it smoked. There was only a few second difference in when the alarm rang. The store bought rang first but didn't seem to be as loud. I have sent a letter to Masterguard today cancelling the order and he is to come tomorrow for a different reason but will find out we are cancelling. I am anxious to hear his reason why the store bought worked as well as Masterguard.

Carolyn2/7/2009 5:03:21 PM

Well the Masterguard associate came today. He did not have any valid reason for the fact the the store bought photoelectric detector working as well. He did say that the store bought rang first because Masterguard is set up with an 8 second delay on ringing to prevent false alarms. I'm not sure that feature is worth hundreds of dollars more but I will agree that false alarms can be very dangerous if you remove or disable your alarms as a result of a false alarm. My suggestion is buy a dual photo/ion alarm that has a hush button. In the case of a real fire the hush button is disabled. Something we tested last night and it continued to ring as long as the smoke continued in our test, thus overriding the hush button. The hush button only quieted it for a few seconds and then it rang again because there was still smoke. In a true false alarm(not a test setting) the hush button would give you enough time to clear the smoke or whatever was setting off the alarm. Don't ever remove your batteries because of a false alarm and if you aren't going to buy the detectors that Masterguard sells then I would make sure at a minimum to have the dual in every bedroom and carbon monoxide detector outside of the sleeping areas along with extinguishers in each bedroom and kitchen. Make sure the extinguishers will work on any kind of fire.

Jay2/28/2009 6:44:01 AM

Hi Again, After reading some comments after my last post, let this be clear. Ion sensors are all but useless. They have an extremely high false alarm rate, amd a very low relialibity rate when it comes to a smoldering, or "Cold Smoke" fire. And the fires that it does detect faster, such as grease or flaming paper, you are likely to BE AWAKE for those fires, and be able to respond quickly. And for the flaming waste paper basket, the difference is around 15-20 seconds, not 30, like a grease fire. As soon as other materials will start to burn, it will produce smoke that will trip the photo detector. The dual sensor alarms are better, but with the ion sensor, you can still get the false alarms, and the nusiance issue. The only dual alarm that is somewhat immune to nusiance alarms is the First Alert SA 302. It has a De-Tuned ion sensor, and a computer chip to detect whether it's a flaming fire, or toast. I did a "Toast test" with this alarm, and other ion only alarms. On 6 tests, the ion only alarms sounded all 6 times, the SA 302 was silent on 4 of the 6 tests. So there is a 66% reduction of nusiance alarms, ok, but not great. The photo alarm was silent, as it should be. Look at any commercial setting, or new commercial building professional alarm installs. ASK ANY TECH that is installing the alarms, such as Simplex, Edwards, or Fire Lite, and in 99% of the time, they are PHOTOELECTRIC units, or they are photo units with a heat sensor, either fixed, rate of rise, or both. These professional systmes have been installed like this since for over 25 years, Why? Becasue professional alarm manafactures have know the limitations of ionization for years, and the false alarm rate, and all but useless ways that it reacts to a smoldering fire, insurance companies, and the Professional manafactures have pretty much set the standard. Ion alarms have very limited functions, such as flammable liquid/gas storage area, where no particles of combuson can be present. Again, ask any Fire alarm company, or even ADT, or who ever installs the home "Professional" systems, what alarms are installed? Again, they are all PHOTO or Photo with Heat. No Ion. And whith the recent ruling in the Hackert Case with First alert, the door is WIDE OPEN for lawsuits. The harsh reality that remains is this, if you have a smoldering fire in your home, and you have an Ion alarm, or alarms, the chances are that you are probably going to NOT BE ALERTED IN TIME, or at all. Go photo, that is the best advice that anyone can give.

Jay2/28/2009 8:41:38 AM

I figured that I would mention masterguard. The products are good, but the price is a RIP OFF!!! ALL of their smoke alarms are made by Gentex, a higer end professional alarm company. There is another company out there Triad Safety

http://www.triadsafetyinc.com/index.html

Who is like Masterguard, but with 1/3 of the cost last time I checked. Again, they use Gentex products.

Gentex makes a good 120V/9Vbatt-backup alarm that is avaialble at most commercial alarm Dist. Companys for about $50-70. This is the same alarm that Mastergaurd uses. Contact Gentex directly and they will find a Dist. in your area.

The battery MG-380T models are much harder to come by, and Gentex does not sell them outside of the list of customers (Triad, Masterguard ETC...) These are great alarms. The heat sensor is a nice addition, but the stand alone metal ones from masterguatd do work a little better, and can take much more punishment.

If you read my previous posts, I have a Dual sensor units (Photo and Heat, NOT ION) made by Everday. They are made overseas, but work well. It can be hard to find in the states, but if you look hard you can find them. The is also a company in Austalia that makes a combo 9 volt Photo/Heat that has a switch in the back to disable the Photo part and have a stand alone heat alarm. With shipping to the USA, they are about 90 for 2 alarms. I will post the link when I find it again.

Carolyn, as for the response to the Masterguard Rep, that is about common. Gentex alarms have a pre alarm level, it samples the air every 8 seconds, if the alarm threshold is reached the first time, it goes to pre-alarm, and if in the second sample it is still there, it will go into alarm. As for the noise, the First Alert, Kidde, or Firex alarms will have an 85Db alarm in code 3, as where the Gentex and Masterguard have a 90Db Piezo Siren.

Overall, even if you had Photo only, you are still at least 90% better off then ion only.

Or better yet, go with a First Alert Photoelectric Wireless One link alarms. It will give you the added benefits of a hardwired system, and some also have CO detectors as well. The upper end ones talk, and tell you where the alarm origin is.

That can give you even more benefits then a masterguard system, since it is a wireless innerconnect, and tells you where the danger is.

And ALL ONE LINK alarms are PHOTOELECTRIC only, no Ion models are made. Hummmmm...... Is First Alert/BEK trying to tell us something?

I'm also a Volunteer Fire-Fighter, so I have seen first hand what ionization can, or in this case, Can't do.

Sam 6/25/2009 1:52:45 AM

A few months ago my wife and I attended a Masterguard Fire Safety Presentation. The information about false alarms and failure to alert were all to familiar to me. Our Smoke detector went off constantly due to shower steam and oven burn off (mom was not skilled in the kitchen). But knowing that I was there to be eventually shown a product, I took the fact that they told me that Ionization failed 55.8% in smouldering fires and started my own research. There are numerous videos and support showing the failure rates of Ion detectors in actual tests and fires. What really got me was the owners manuals for the "off the shelf detectors" and this even included the manuals for Photoelectric models. I purchased alarms from $5 up to $100 to do my own fire test. I was concerned even before i set a fire, that in all the manuals was a statement saying that in the event of fire these detectors could fail at any time, or this smoke detector (according to FEMA could fail in as many as 35% of all fires). Really? Wow..... so i started my little garage tests. I could never get an Ion detector to make a sound even when i had fire right under the thing. I scheduled my appointment with the Masterguard Rep for a few days out to let this whole thing sink in and see how i felt about it a little later when fire wasnt on my brain. When the rep came to our home, he was very educated in his competition. And I expected to be hammered by many types of sales tequniques to get me to buy his products. He showed us what we needed according to the NFPA guidelines and pointed out to us that two of our 7 wired in alarms actually had no power at all. so basically i was short handed before we ever got started. The in home manners of this individual were nothing like i had read about on the internet and as far as the price... ya it was a little steep but they were the ones who educated me on the danger of what I didnt have in my home. When I told him that i would have to think about it for a while, I thought for sure that he would start to give me all his best training to make me do something that day. He told me that its not everyday that people go out and price commercial grade fire equipment for homes and said that if i wanted them that i could call him at anytime and if i had any questions. Bottom line Photo for smouldering and I love that they have a heat as thier combo. Heat is true energy and I am not going to put my family in the hands of anything Ionization. Masterguard was expensive but worth every cent. Our Fire Departments sleep under Masterguard in our station!

Doug6/29/2009 8:32:40 PM

@ Jay (or anyone that knows)

I attended the Masterguard seminar, as mentioned by several here. Is there any difference between the Gentex 9120T/9123T, and those sold by Masterguard (other that physical appearance)? As far as I can tell, the specs are virtually identical (photoelectric, heat sensor, etc). Masterguard tries to push that theirs is the only ones that work 100% of the time, but they compare theirs to the general iononization detectors, which of course, do not work most of the time. Is there really going to be the case, when comparing apples to apples with a cheaper 9120T/9123T model?

Harry Knickerbocker7/31/2009 6:03:28 PM

Good review

Jay8/8/2009 1:45:23 AM

Glad you got some real Smoke Detectors.

Gentex makes Masterguard, and Triad Safety alarms. The 9120T/9123T ARE THE SAME THING as the Masterguard alarms. You can get them online for $40-65 a Piece.

I have some Everday dual sensors, and a few Triad Safety (Gentex) units. They all work well.

There are NO IONIZATION alarms in my home.

Even the basic First Alert Photoelectric Alarms that you can get at Walmart for $13 are superior to ANY ion alarm.

Masterguard is good, but cost WAY TOO MUCH!!!!

Doug8/8/2009 3:06:42 PM

Thanks for the info. I've ordered some 9123T smoke detectors. I'm having a little trouble finding comparable stand alone mechanical heat detectors to those sold by Masterguard. All I've found are designed to be tied to a fire panel, and do not opperate independently. Any sources anyone could recommend?

Jay9/1/2009 6:18:53 AM

The Mechanical units are very hard to find. Do you have A/C power available? If so, then BRK makes a good Fixed and ROR unit.

Gentex also makes 120V/9V backup stand alone heat detectors.

I know there is a company overseas that makes 9 volt heat alarms (DICON) and they ship them to the US for about $45 total.

Dean Dennis9/2/2009 8:01:33 PM

Here is my email for anyone that would like to contact me ([email protected])

First a personal thanks to Courteney Stuart for her articles that bring this forum together and thanks to Jay for great information. In another one of Courteney's stories I saw in the comment section that Kidde advertises 10 ionization detectors but only one photoelectric. I may be sharing misinformation, but I recall hearing that Kidde has a huge subcontract in China to have ionization detectors made thereby making them a little less manuverable to promote the photoelectric. First Alert/BRK, as many of you know, are now quietly supporting photoelectric legislation. Their claim is fire officials feel that the ionization alarms false signal too often, so they (First Alert/BRK) are supportive of photoelectric alarms.

Lastly, it is clear to me that the companies are going to do whatever is in their best interest to make a profit, UL isn't going to state ionizations are faulty because they approve them and the Consumer Product Safety Commisson will study the issue to death at the expense of more deaths. What we need to do is to continue to educate people, our fire departments, pressure politicans and probably publicly embarrass the people that remain quiet but know better.

Ed Middleton9/29/2009 10:51:08 PM

Hi,

Great Article. Currently finishing off my basement and looking for new smoke and CO alarms.

Obviously after reading this I need Photoelectric smoke detectors. Ideally, I'd like hard-wired combo detectors with battery back-up and wireless interconnect. No one seems to have these.

First Alert is close; you either get 120 V / battery backup smoke or Combo battery operation.

I have 3 levels on my home and currently / original configuration of 1989 house has 1 wired smoke on second floor hallway and 1 wired smoke at top of basement stairs. There is a door at the top of the stairs so that sensor is really for the basement.

I also have a CO monitor plugged into wall in upstairs hallway. I plan to replace / upgrade all existing sensors.

My question is how to best setup my new configuration. I'd love to put a wireless CO monitor by the furnace but can't seem to find one and then a wired smoke at top of stairs of basement. That'll do the basement.

Add a wireless batt operated smoke detector on first floor near kitchen.

Add a 120V wireless combo detector smoke/CO in main hallway upstairs. Can't find one of these.

Add battery operated wireless connected smoke alarms to each bedroom. Those are available.

Does the layout seem ok? Any suggestions on who might carry the detectors that I need?

thanks,

Ed

Zak12/1/2009 9:49:02 PM

has anyone heard of a company called DeTech? he came over and gave us a presentation that pretty much scared us to death. Tried to sell us smoke detectors, heat detectors, carbonmonoxide detectors and monitoring for $11K. They said that their main competitor was Masterguard and basically told us all the same stuff that you all have written on here. Obfviously, what they are quoting ($325 for a heat detector and $295 for a smoke/heat detector) is excessive but I am trying to figure out what the price should be without sacrificing quality. Any input you have would be appreciated.

Thank you,

Zak

Jay12/29/2009 12:48:33 AM

11 grand is a S**T load of $$$ to spend on a system.

Now to be honest with you, if you want to spend a little extra $$$, without going bankrupt, I would look into the First Alert One-Link alarms. They are Photoelectric Only, and The higher ones also have Carbon Monoxide Detectors, and TALK TO YOU!!!

That is right, they will tell the location of the Fire or CO emergency, and they are Wireless Interconnect.

So when one goes off, they all do.

As for the Heat alarms, Go on to Amazon.com, and buy some 9 volt ones from the UK, about $40 with shipping.

If you have Electric Alarms, look into the Gentex models, they are the "Cadillac" of smoke alarms. You can get a combo unit with Photo and heat too, with a 9V battery Back Up.

Even a home ADT/Brinks/Broadview system installed and monitored would not be that much. They also use Photoelectric units.


Your Name:
Your Email (optional):
Comment:
Word Count:
0
500 word limit
Image Verification:
Please type the letters above:
*  People say the darndest things, but if you use language stronger than "darn," ethnically or racially disparaging language, or compare people to Hitler, you may find that we've deleted the comment and/or blocked you from further commenting. Ditto for most unverified information, gross insults, potentially libelous statements, and veering off the topic. To avoid spam, all comments containing more than two weblinks are placed into a holding tank.



© 2002-2008 Better Publications LLC - The Hook - 100 Second Street NW - Charlottesville, VA 22902 - 434-295-8700 (fax: 434-295-8097) :Login: